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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 27286 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • Lad,

    I think the confusion here is that the understanding is that Limbo, while part of hell, is merely deprivation of the beatific vision - that is the extent of the "punishment."

    Are you saying the same goes for your example of the "repentant" man who stole, or that he receives some extremely mild form of actual punishment, something more than mere denial of the beatific vision?

    DR

    More the latter.  He would not enjoy perfect happiness for eternity like the souls in Limbo, but his actual punishment could be extremely mild or perhaps even entirely offset (at least for this particular action).  As per the Catholic Encyclopedia article, there's a difference between the privation of grace, and then the degree of suffering due to one's sins.  While the former can never be offset by natural virtue (that would be Pelagianism), the latter (I speculate) can.  At the end of the day, everyone gets exactly what they deserve.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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  • That's an entirely separate question ... whether or not he can be saved.  He cannot, however, merit salvation by any acts of natural virtue, but I hold (and you seem to agree) that he can offset some of his eternal suffering by the exercise of natural virtue.
    Yeah, that seems only reasonable.  


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • More the latter.  He would not enjoy perfect happiness for eternity like the souls in Limbo, but his actual punishment could be extremely mild or perhaps even entirely offset (at least for this particular action).  As per the Catholic Encyclopedia article, there's a difference between the privation of grace, and then the degree of suffering due to one's sins.  While the former can never be offset by natural virtue (that would be Pelagianism), the latter (I speculate) can.  At the end of the day, everyone gets exactly what they deserve.
    I figured as much. 

    It is de fide that the damned - let us say all who actually suffer some torment, no matter how mild - suffer differing punishments in hell. So I don't think your speculation is controversial at all; it seems sound to me. 

    I just would not say they are in Limbo, since Limbo is reserved for a place of non-punishment but merely deprivation of the beatific vision. This would be unique to infants and those lacking the mental competence to commit personal sin. To extend the term to those you describe would confuse things in my opinion, and the existing understanding and teaching provides room for your speculation under the traditional terminology and understanding. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I just would not say they are in Limbo, since Limbo is reserved for a place of non-punishment but merely deprivation of the beatific vision.

    And, according to St. Thomas, not just non-punishment, but even a place of perfect natural happiness.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • And, according to St. Thomas, not just non-punishment, but even a place of perfect natural happiness.
    Yes. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    1) one man steals $1,000 and dies unrepentant
    2) another man steals $1,000, repents, returns the $1,000, and then gives another $10,000 to the poor to make up for this.  Then he gives up his life to save another person.

    Are you trying to claim that the punishment of both of these is the same?
    A few Lenten seasons ago, a youtube video popped up on my screen about a man who "died" in an accident and went to hell.  He described in excruciating detail what he saw, heard and felt.  Then God allowed him to go back into his body and he was a changed man.  I ended up watching multiple videos, from all different types of people, and all of the details were the same of what they saw (i.e. the fiery lake, the torments of souls, the hatred and horror of the demons).  However, in each of these stories, what was different was the PARTICULAR punishments that each person realized they would suffer for the sins of their life, which they admitted they were guilty of. 
    .
    One guy was led to a place with no light, no warmth, and no hope - a dark nothingness that he said he deserved for his life of selfishness.  He wasn't a bad guy, he took care of his family, he didn't have any addictions, but he also didn't practice religion at all - he lived his life only for himself.  So his punishment was to be by himself for all eternity.  When he realized his fate, he called out to God, which he hadn't done since being a child, and he was given a chance to have his life back.  This man now attends church regularly and spends a lot of time reading the bible, things he had never ever done before.  He made his youtube video to try to help people.
    .
    Another guy was a drug addict, who lived a crazy life of passions and all manner of excesses.  He was a motorcycle-gang type of tough guy.  After he "died" he found himself in a large open field, surrounded by demons.  He was put in chains and dragged to a dark place down a long, winding road.  He said they walked for what seemed like half a day to get there.  While on the journey, the demons were scaring him, punching him, laughing at him and mocking him.  Once he got to hell, he saw all manner of atrocities and pain.  All the demons were joyously happy that he arrived and they started to rip his arms out of his body, and tear into his flesh with their massive claws, which was extremely painful, only for his body to be completely healed a few seconds later.  Then the devils would laugh and attack him again, causing just as much pain as the first time.  After what seemed like hours of this torment, (it was probably only a few minutes), he saw a bright light fill the cavern and all the devils ran off.  Then the man cried out to Christ to save him, even though he didn't even know what the light was.  Eventually, the man could see that the light was actually Christ and he stopped shouting, out of fear and awe.  Christ looked at him sternly for what seemed like half an hour, and He told the man that he was where he deserved to be.  The man had nothing to say, as it was true; all he could do was stare at the ground.  Finally, Christ asked the man why he should be given another chance.  The man, seeing his sinfulness, could only offer a meek begging for forgiveness.  Christ asked the man if he would change.  The man, not being able to look at the light, nodded silently.  Christ came over to the man, lifted him up off the ground, hugged him, and said that all was forgiven but he would have to amend his life.  The man said that he had never felt so close to God in all his life.  The man woke up on a hospital bed and now spends his life preaching about Christ and trying to help others with addictions.
    .
    There are hundreds of stories out there like this.  These people aren't lying.  They are dead serious and their lives are completely changed.  But every person's story is different and their punishments were different, as were their sins.  It's very sobering but it does agree with all that we know from Scripture and from the Saints.   

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Quote
    I never said that.  There's a difference, however, between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to sin, which I hold can be mitigated by acts of natural virtue.
    Well, I would disagree with that. What you are saying is that non-meritorious, non-supernatural (purely natural) acts can be satisfactory. But that is a mistake. What you can say is that, a naturally good person, would have perhaps many attenuating circuмstances in the one or two mortal sins that he committed, so that his eternal punishment would be less than one who sinned out of pure malice, and repeatedly. Still sobering. But all the acts of natural virtue in the world combined cannot equal one meritorous action. And in order for a good work to be satisfactory, Ladislaus, in addition to being meritorious, Theologians commonly teach, it must in some way be painful. Our Lord made Infinite Satisfaction for all our sins by His Infinite Merits and His Incredible Sufferings. Our Immaculate Mother Mary, Whose merits are next to His, made the next greatest satisfaction. All in the State of Grace, and only those in the State of Grace, I would hold, are capable of making satisfaction.

    But if this person avoids sin and corresponds to Grace, and is ready to seek the Truth, God will enlighten him about Christ, and save his soul. St. Alphonsus says that.

    Quote
    1) one man steals $1,000 and dies unrepentant
    Quote
    2) another man steals $1,000, repents, returns the $1,000, and then gives another $10,000 to the poor to make up for this.  Then he gives up his life to save another person.

    If these were only natural acts, they would not suffice for salvation, nor either for expiation, reparation and satisfaction. At most the second could have been less culpable to begin with, owing to his naturally good life, and thus have less punishment, for natural virtue cannot expiate either guilt or punishment of mortal sin by itself. But then again your scenario is a hypothesis. Hear St. Alphonsus, on what a non-Christian should do, in order to receive the saving knowledge of the Truth, Who is Christ: the Scriptural example of Cornelius is given. Recall Cornelius gave alms and helped the Temple, avoided sin and prayed. Hence, God enlightened him, both by an Apostle and by an Angel, and saved his soul: "if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius. Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.” https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2017/01/23/st-alphonsus-liguori-on-st-thomas-on-the-necessity-of-explicit-faith-in-the-trinity-and-the-redeemer/

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Well, I would disagree with that. What you are saying is that non-meritorious, non-supernatural (purely natural) acts can be satisfactory. But that is a mistake. What you can say is that, a naturally good person, would have perhaps many attenuating circuмstances in the one or two mortal sins that he committed, so that his eternal punishment would be less than one who sinned out of pure malice, and repeatedly. Still sobering. But all the acts of natural virtue in the world combined cannot equal one meritorous action. And in order for a good work to be satisfactory, Ladislaus, in addition to being meritorious, Theologians commonly teach, it must in some way be painful. Our Lord made Infinite Satisfaction for all our sins by His Infinite Merits and His Incredible Sufferings. Our Immaculate Mother Mary, Whose merits are next to His, made the next greatest satisfaction. All in the State of Grace, and only those in the State of Grace, I would hold, are capable of making satisfaction.

    But if this person avoids sin and corresponds to Grace, and is ready to seek the Truth, God will enlighten him about Christ, and save his soul. St. Alphonsus says that.

    If these were only natural acts, they would not suffice for salvation, nor either for expiation, reparation and satisfaction. At most the second could have been less culpable to begin with, owing to his naturally good life, and thus have less punishment, for natural virtue cannot expiate either guilt or punishment of mortal sin by itself. But then again your scenario is a hypothesis. Hear St. Alphonsus, on what a non-Christian should do, in order to receive the saving knowledge of the Truth, Who is Christ: the Scriptural example of Cornelius is given. Recall Cornelius gave alms and helped the Temple, avoided sin and prayed. Hence, God enlightened him, both by an Apostle and by an Angel, and saved his soul: "if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius. Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.” https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2017/01/23/st-alphonsus-liguori-on-st-thomas-on-the-necessity-of-explicit-faith-in-the-trinity-and-the-redeemer/
    All men judged for their actions, even the damned. So, in a sense, those actions have some merit or value, since they ARE taken into accounting. 


    Quote
    But if this person avoids sin and corresponds to Grace, and is ready to seek the Truth, God will enlighten him about Christ, and save his soul. St. Alphonsus says that.

    Ok. So essentially you are saying that a pagan or non-believer is incapable of doing what Ladislaus posited?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Xavier,

    You are making everyone who dies for someone else a believer.

    Doesn't the council of Florence shoot that down?


    Quote
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.[/color]

    Some go to hell even if they shed their blood for the "name of Christ." Is Cantate Domino describing a null set? 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    What you are saying is that non-meritorious, non-supernatural (purely natural) acts can be satisfactory. But that is a mistake.
    I would think that naturally good acts can remit temporal punishment due to sins for non-catholics, just as they do for Catholics.  Though, only God would know if such a non-Catholic would eventually convert or not.  If God knew they would not convert, then instead of granting this person remissions of his sins, He would grant him more earthly blessings, because knowing this person would spent eternity in hell, God, being all-just, still rewards them for their good deeds here on earth.  If God knew that the non-Catholic would be saved, then such good acts would merit many actual graces which would lead to their conversion and, eventually, would remit their punishment for eternity.  I would say that mostly, good works done by non-catholics would merit actual graces, instead of remission of punishment, but it could be both.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Yes, Pax Vobis, I agree God would reward good natural works, with temporal blessings, if He foresees they are going to die in their sins and be lost.

    Re: Null set. No, Decem, not at all. Cantate Domino is describing all those who are formal heretics, who culpably separated from the Church (like those at Florence who were in danger of leaving the Church during the Orthodox Schism e.g. Mark of Ephesus), when it says all their works profit them nothing unto salvation, since they are in obstinate unrepented mortal sin. They are what Scripture and St. Thomas calls dead works; they avail nothing. St. Alphonsus also teaches, citing many Saints, that there is a predetermined number of mortal sins beyond which God pardons no more. God alone knows how many it will be for each person. St. Alphonsus warns every person unrepentant mortal sin and intent on committing more that the next mortal sin he commits may be his last, after which he could be struck dead, and sent to hell, or lose forever the Grace to return to repentance through his own fault. I am not saying a non-Christian is incapable of doing what Ladislaus suggested. But if they were natural, they would have no eternal merit. Supernatural Merit requires Supernatural Grace. Satisfaction is consequent to a Meritorious Work and depends on it. This is fairly clear in Theology.

    In order to be saved, a completely different sequence must be followed: (1) Firm avoidance of mortal sins. (2) Keeping natural law as known through conscience as best as one can (3) co-operating with daily grace, through prayer, almsgiving etc like Cornelius did. Non-Christians can commit mortal sins, just as we can commit. Pagans who kill children in contraception and abortion and who live on drugs and fornication are not at all the equivalent of naturally virtuous good non-Christians who marry, raise families, and live uprightly, while praying, giving alms and seeking Truth.

    It is such a person of the second sort of whom Pope Pius IX says "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church". God does not send anyone to hell lightly. If they are stubbornly separated from the Church, rejecting known Truth, they will be lost. If they are in good faith, and fulfil the required conditions, they can and will be saved, though not as they are. They will come to Christ at some point in their lives, and thus be saved as Christians.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    If they are in good faith, and fulfil the required conditions, they can and will be saved, though not as they are. They will come to Christ at some point in their lives, and thus be saved as Christians Catholics.
    Fixed the above.
    .
    With the "fix", I agree with you.  Then, logically, it is 100% false for anyone to say that those in false religions (including protestants) can be saved.  They cannot be saved IN their false religion, but only AFTER they leave their false religion and join the Catholic Church.
    .
    In the same way, it is 100% false to say that "invincibly ignorant" persons can be saved, for they are in just as much error as false religions (if not moreso).  So, the invincibly ignorant either dies in ignorance or...he becomes Catholic (even if through a miracle) before he dies.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Well, I would disagree with that. What you are saying is that non-meritorious, non-supernatural (purely natural) acts can be satisfactory.

    I am saying that they can offset the reatus paeonae, not the reatus culpae.  Satisfaction refers to offsetting both.

    Based on your thinking, the guy who stole the $1,000 and did not repent gets the exact same punishment as the guy who stole it, then repented and paid it back, and then gave some extra money to the poor in reparation.  [Both made the initial theft with the same degree of malice.]

    I also believe that God often rewards acts of natural virtue with actual graces.