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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 30898 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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  • LastTrad,
    Let me clear up what I think.  I don't know why you're getting bent out of shape here; you're the one who keeps saying that this-or-that in regards to Limbo is dogma.  I keep saying ALL details of Limbo are speculation.  It can probably be argued that the idea of Limbo is doctrine, but we can't say for sure who is or isn't there.
    .
    1.  You have argued that you "never heard" of adults going to Limbo.  I'll counter by saying I've never heard the term "limbo of infants", which implies adults can't go.
    2.  For the 3rd time, Pope Innocent's quote on Limbo COULD include adults, since he does not say infants only, but says that those who die with only original sin go to Limbo.
    3.  On the thread of 'salvation for native Indians' there was some saint who said that God could leave some "good natured" Indians in ignorance as a blessing because while they are good-willed on a natural level, He knew they wouldn't accept the Faith, so He did not have it preached to them, so they wouldn't be guilty for this grave sin.  Thus, they could die and their eternal suffering would be minimal.  ...This is obvious speculation, but it's the line of thinking that I am arguing.
    4.  It's possible for an unbaptized, above-the-age-of-reason person to die without mortal sins.  Like a 7-10 year old.  Or even an adult "ignorant native".  Is it likely?  No.  Possible?  Yes.
    I just wrote answers to all of your questions and it didn't post, I lost it. So, I'll get back to you later.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • LastTrad,
    Let me clear up what I think.  I don't know why you're getting bent out of shape here; you're the one who keeps saying that this-or-that in regards to Limbo is dogma.  I keep saying ALL details of Limbo are speculation.  It can probably be argued that the idea of Limbo is doctrine, but we can't say for sure who is or isn't there.
    .
    1.  You have argued that you "never heard" of adults going to Limbo.  I'll counter by saying I've never heard the term "limbo of infants", which implies adults can't go.
    2.  For the 3rd time, Pope Innocent's quote on Limbo COULD include adults, since he does not say infants only, but says that those who die with only original sin go to Limbo.
    3.  On the thread of 'salvation for native Indians' there was some saint who said that God could leave some "good natured" Indians in ignorance as a blessing because while they are good-willed on a natural level, He knew they wouldn't accept the Faith, so He did not have it preached to them, so they wouldn't be guilty for this grave sin.  Thus, they could die and their eternal suffering would be minimal.  ...This is obvious speculation, but it's the line of thinking that I am arguing.
    4.  It's possible for an unbaptized, above-the-age-of-reason person to die without mortal sins.  Like a 7-10 year old.  Or even an adult "ignorant native".  Is it likely?  No.  Possible?  Yes.
    I'll keep it short, because I lost my reply to your every word:
    You said:

    Quote
    On the thread of 'salvation for native Indians' there was some saint who said that God could leave some "good natured" Indians in ignorance as a blessing because while they are good-willed on a natural level, He knew they wouldn't accept the Faith, so He did not have it preached to them, so they wouldn't be guilty for this grave sin.  Thus, they could die and their eternal suffering would be minimal.  ...This is obvious speculation, but it's the line of thinking that I am arguing.

    It was not some saint who said that, it was me who has said it quite a few times here since you brought up the idea that hairy backed adults go to (THE PARADISE called) Limbo of the Infants subject. Have you read anything I wrote? (By the way, if you have the quotes from Saint claiming that, I'd be very appreciative to you if you could post them for my archives, for I did not get the idea out of thin air.) The difference between you and I is that you are sending the person to Limbo of the Infants, while I am sending him to the exact place you described above "a place where there IS eternal suffering", which is Hell. There is no eternal suffering in Limbo of the Infants, it is a PARADISE, there are no suffering, no torments, no mosquitos/heat/cold like in Hell. There is nothing on Earth that is comparable. Do you understand now? If you have quotes from saints teaching that they go to "a place where there IS minimal eternal suffering", why would you need to invent that they go to PARADISE, which is not supported by any saint?

    That's the short of it.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • LT,
    Limbo is PART of hell, not heaven.  Limbo is a "paradise" in relation to the other parts of hell, but it's still not heaven.  Please respond to YOUR quote from Innocent III who said that "those" (not infants, could be adults) who die in original sin (i.e. have not mortal sins on their souls) only go to Limbo. 
    .
    Quote
    There is no eternal suffering in Limbo of the Infants, it is a PARADISE, there are no suffering, no torments, no mosquitos/heat/cold like in Hell. There is nothing on Earth that is comparable. Do you understand now?
    It's a "natural" paradise but still part of hell. 
    .
    Even heaven is a mystery where the saints realize that Saint A is greater than Saint B, or they realize that in spite of their many sins, they still were saved.  Though no one in heaven suffers "regrets/sadness" that does not mean they don't intellectually realize that their lives could've been better and more perfect, thus their spot in heaven higher.
    .
    In the same way, there could also be various levels of Limbo, where infants suffer the least, while adults suffer slightly due to the loss of God.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • LT,
    Limbo is PART of hell, not heaven (No revelations there) .  Limbo is a "paradise" in relation to the other parts of hell, but it's still not heaven (strawman) .  Please respond to YOUR quote from Innocent III who said that "those" (not infants, could be adults) who die in original sin (i.e. have not mortal sins on their souls) only go to Limbo.
    .It's a "natural" paradise but still part of hell. (there are no torments in Limbo, your own quote says that the saints teach that the "native" suffers torments, yet you insist on making up your own better place than the saints. OK, so be it, put them then in a PARADISE better than anything on Earth. Saved Catholics have to suffer the torments of Purgatory, but your pagan goes to directly to a Paradise.  So be it. That's the end of the discussion. )
    My comments in red.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • LT, I am totally confused as to what we're even debating.  Here's the difference (I think).
    .
    I define "Limbo" as a place where this is NO PHYSICAL SUFFERING; it is an earthly paradise.  The inhabitants would include 2 groups 1) infants/mentally handicapped and 2) (possibly, in theory, as a guess) certain 'naturally good' adults (i.e. the "invincibly ignorant" who were not enlightened by God...if such enlightenment even happens, which no one has to believe). 
    .
    The difference between our views is this:  The group of infants/handicapped would have no PHYSICAL sufferings but also no INTELLECTUAL/SPIRITUAL sufferings, as they did not have the potential to know God being they died before the age of reason. 
    .
    The group of adults would/could have INTELLECTUAL/SPIRITUAL sufferings, due to the regret in not being able to see God and knowing that they would've rejected the Faith had God given them the opportunity, yet in His mercy, He left them to their natural degree of perfection only.
    .
    If you want to call Limbo the place where there is "absolutely no suffering for infants", then ok.  And if you want to call my place of "mental suffering only" hell, then ok.  But I would call both places Limbo, because I would lump "no physical suffering" into 1 area.  At the end of the day, it's all part of hell, regardless.  We're just debating details, none of which has been defined.  So you may be correct.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • …. 2) (possibly, in theory, as a guess) certain 'naturally good' adults (i.e. the "invincibly ignorant" who were not enlightened by God...if such enlightenment even happens, which no one has to believe).
    .
    The difference between our views is this:  The group of infants/handicapped would have no PHYSICAL sufferings but also no INTELLECTUAL/SPIRITUAL sufferings, as they did not have the potential to know God being they died before the age of reason.
    .
    The group of adults would/could have INTELLECTUAL/SPIRITUAL sufferings, due to the regret in not being able to see God and knowing that they would've rejected the Faith had God given them the opportunity, yet in His mercy, He left them to their natural degree of perfection only.
    .
    If you want to call Limbo the place where there is "absolutely no suffering for infants", then ok.  And if you want to call my place of "mental suffering only" hell, then ok.  But I would call both places Limbo, because I would lump "no physical suffering" into 1 area.  At the end of the day, it's all part of hell, regardless.  We're just debating details, none of which has been defined.  So you may be correct.
    That's just too many speculations for me. I am not wired to spend time on speculations. I'll stick with what I said and you yourself repeated as that the Saints said: "there was some saint who said that God could leave some "good natured" Indians in ignorance as a blessing because while they are good-willed on a natural level, He knew they wouldn't accept the Faith, so He did not have it preached to them, so they wouldn't be guilty for this grave sin.  Thus, they could die and their eternal suffering in Hell would be lessened".


    “The common teaching of the scholastic theologians is the within the earth there are four inner chambers: one for the damned, another for those being purged of sin, a third for those infants who have died without receiving Baptism, and a fourth which is now empty but once held those just men who died before the passion of Christ.”
    -Saint Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Doctor of the Church




    Offline Yeti

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  • I guess you don't get the point of my response.  You were/are claiming that hell necessarily entails great suffering.  St. Augustine didn't think so.  He put the unbaptized infants in hell, but considered them to suffer "very little".  In other words, he considered it possible for there to be "little suffering" in hell, despite your claim that there can be no such thing.
    .
    There's a difference between the fate of unbaptized infants and people who commit mortal sin and die in that state. Are you saying St. Augustine didn't think the latter endure great suffering? I highly doubt this.
    .
    This is confusing because you are conflating two very different things:
    1. The eternal fate of unbaptized infants, and
    2. The eternal fate of people who commit mortal sin and die in that state
    .
    I tried to make it clear that I was speaking only of #2. While #1 has been the subject of controversy and debate over the centuries, I have never heard anyone question the idea that people in category #2 endure suffering so great that people in this world cannot even imagine it. When it looked like you questioned that, I decided to insert myself into this conversation. :popcorn:

    Online Ladislaus

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  • There's a difference between the fate of unbaptized infants and people who commit mortal sin and die in that state. Are you saying St. Augustine didn't think the latter endure great suffering? I highly doubt this.

    You're still not getting it; the MAJOR of your argument was that hell by definition was a place of extreme torment.  I denied the major by appealing to St. Augustine, who states that it is possible for there to be mild suffering in hell.  Your adults vs. infants distinction is a red herring.  Now, go ahead and argue that it is not possible for there to be little suffering in hell for adults, for whatever reason, but your previous argument fails.  You're currently conflating two different arguments.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • That's just too many speculations for me. I am not wired to spend time on speculations.

    Except that you've made about a dozen or more lengthy posts on the subject.  If you don't care about speculation and won't "spend time" on it, then just drop it.  Pax and I are in agreement that it is possible for there to be some adults in hell who suffer very little.

    This is founded in ...

    1) Church teaching that the sufferings in hell vary
    2) the notion that God would be just in determining the degrees of suffering, and that He would also, according to His promises, reward good deeds (such as fraternal works of mercy); while these cannot receive supernatural merit unless the person be in a state of grace, there's nothing to preclude a remission of some temporal punishment (Latin poena) due to sin
    3) various hypothetical scenarios in which an adult remained relatively innocent (based on his own conscience) and also practiced a high degree of natural virtue

    There is no specific Church teaching declaring the exact degree of minimal suffering required to be in hell beyond no suffering for infants.  Consequently, there's nothing in Church teaching to preclude our speculation.  Produce something in Church teaching that militates against this speculation, and I'm all ears, but this repetition of "I've never heard of this before" is a waste of both our time and yours.

    I also speculate in this regard because this overcomes many of the emotional objections to EENS dogma.  People have false notions of hell that therefore make EENS dogma seem "unjust" or "unfair" to people.  We could thereby obviate some false implicit straw man objections to EENS.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Original sin can never be in any one alone after the age of reason. This teaching of St. Thomas is clearly disregarded or ignored (though perhaps they are ignorant of it) by some people here, and that is the reason for confusion. Hence, adults do not go to limbo, but their eternal destination will only be either (1) the terrifying pains of hell-fire, or (2) the endless bliss of the beatific vision.

    "I answer that, It is impossible for venial sin to be in anyone with original sin alone, and without mortal sin. The reason for this is because before a man comes to the age of discretion, the lack of years hinders the use of reason and excuses him from mortal sin, wherefore, much more does it excuse him from venial sin, if he does anything which is such generically. But when he begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin. Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself.

    And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, and as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, through not doing that which is in his power to do. Accordingly thenceforward there cannot be venial sin in him without mortal, until afterwards all sin shall have been remitted to him through grace." (Summa Theologiae, Prima Secundae Partis, Q.89. A.6)

    I suppose one should see, nevertheless, in this error of the persons here, a good intention not to needlessly consign others to an eternal hellfire of misery. Nevertheless, that intention is not perfect; for, if it were, and it came from genuine love of souls, and knowledge of the Scriptural Teaching on the Universal Salvific Will of God, and that Our Lord Jesus Christ died for all, it would recognize the Doctrine of BOD is true and perfect Catholic Doctrine, and a Great Grace and Priceless Mercy from an All-Good God, Who desires to save all.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • Original sin can never be in any one alone after the age of reason.

    I never said that.  There's a difference, however, between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to sin, which I hold can be mitigated by acts of natural virtue.

    Again, take this example (both infidels who do not have the supernatural faith and cannot be saved):

    1) one man steals $1,000 and dies unrepentant
    2) another man steals $1,000, repents, returns the $1,000, and then gives another $10,000 to the poor to make up for this.  Then he gives up his life to save another person.

    Are you trying to claim that the punishment of both of these is the same?

    Of course, you, with your EENS denial, would likely claim that the second man goes to heaven.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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  • I never said that.  There's a difference, however, between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to sin, which I hold can be mitigated by acts of natural virtue.

    Again, take this example (both infidels who do not have the supernatural faith and cannot be saved):

    1) one man steals $1,000 and dies unrepentant
    2) another man steals $1,000, repents, returns the $1,000, and then gives another $10,000 to the poor to make up for this.  Then he gives up his life to save another person.

    Are you trying to claim that the punishment of both of these is the same?

    Of course, you, with your EENS denial, would likely claim that the second man goes to heaven.
    Since I’d be accused of EENS denial by you, I want to clarify a matter.
    I would NOT necessarily say the second man goes to heaven.  In and of itself, what you describe, I’d agree with you, would be only sufficient to lessen his torment in hell. 
    I only think he could go to heaven if he was invincibly ignorant, was joined to the Church via at least implicit desire to be a part of her, and had perfect contrition for his mortal sins.  I think that’s theoretically possible but do not know if it’s ever happened.
    I realize you’d still disagree with that, but i at least wouldn’t advocate a pelagian idea that mere natural goodness can get a soul to heaven 

    Online Ladislaus

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  • from Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    The first effect of mortal sin in man is to avert him from his true last end, and deprive his soul of sanctifying grace. ...  The privation of grace is ... not anything positive, a quality or disposition, an obligation to suffer, an extrinsic denomination coming from sin, but is solely the privation of sanctifying grace. ...

    The second effect of sin is to entail the penalty of undergoing suffering (reatus pænæ). Sin (reatus culpæ) is the cause of this obligation (reatus pænæ ). The suffering may be inflicted in this life through the medium of medicinal punishments, calamities, sickness, temporal evils, which tend to withdraw from sin; or it may be inflicted in the life to come by the justice of God as vindictive punishment. The punishments of the future life are proportioned to the sin committed, and it is the obligation of undergoing this punishment for unrepented sin that is signified by the "reatus poenæ" of the theologians. The penalty to be undergone in the future life is divided into the pain of loss (pæna damni) and the pain of sense (pæna sensus). The pain of loss is the privation of the beatific vision of God in punishment of turning away from Him. The pain of sense is suffering in punishment of the conversion to some created thing in place of God.

    So, as per the teaching of St. Thomas, the reatus culpae certainly remains, but I hold that the reatus paenae can be mitigated and offset by acts of natural virtue (kindness, generosity, selflessness, etc.)

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Since I’d be accused of EENS denial by you, I want to clarify a matter.
    I would NOT necessarily say the second man goes to heaven.  In and of itself, what you describe, I’d agree with you, would be only sufficient to lessen his torment in hell.
    I only think he could go to heaven if he was invincibly ignorant, was joined to the Church via at least implicit desire to be a part of her, and had perfect contrition for his mortal sins.  I think that’s theoretically possible but do not know if it’s ever happened.
    I realize you’d still disagree with that, but i at least wouldn’t advocate a pelagian idea that mere natural goodness can get a soul to heaven

    That's an entirely separate question ... whether or not he can be saved.  He cannot, however, merit salvation by any acts of natural virtue, but I hold (and you seem to agree) that he can offset some of his eternal suffering by the exercise of natural virtue.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • I never said that.  There's a difference, however, between the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to sin, which I hold can be mitigated by acts of natural virtue.

    Again, take this example (both infidels who do not have the supernatural faith and cannot be saved):

    1) one man steals $1,000 and dies unrepentant
    2) another man steals $1,000, repents, returns the $1,000, and then gives another $10,000 to the poor to make up for this.  Then he gives up his life to save another person.

    Are you trying to claim that the punishment of both of these is the same?

    Of course, you, with your EENS denial, would likely claim that the second man goes to heaven.
    Lad,

    I think the confusion here is that the understanding is that Limbo, while part of hell, is merely deprivation of the beatific vision - that is the extent of the "punishment."

    Are you saying the same goes for your example of the "repentant" man who stole, or that he receives some extremely mild form of actual punishment, something more than mere denial of the beatific vision?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.