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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 32924 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Rationally, I cannot see a foot to stand on with this position. Any way of saying someone who's not a baptised Christian and doesn't even desire baptism could be saved seems like a direct contradiction of EENS. And yet even the largest Trad groups all teach the same. Even +Lefebvre taught that people in false religions can be saved. How is it that even those who claim to be rejecting V2 are still supporting this denial of EENS? Even groups that don't even claim communion with Rome at all, like the CMRI, still teach this. Only various independent individuals like the Dimonds seem to teach otherwise. Despite how obvious it is that EENS = EENS, it still seems like the overwhelming majority of clergymen, even those who claim to reject modernism and its associated heresies, still teach that those in false religions can be saved. "Implicit baptism of desire" or what have you. Why do they teach this?

    But grace exists outside the Church, and the moment a non-Catholic enters the state of sanctifying grace, he is joined to the Church, despite not being a member of it.

    If that weren’t so, the implication would be that those dying in the state of grace were damned, which is absurd, since all the damned are damned precisely for dying outside the state of grace (and on a more technical level, being in the state of grace is a participation in the divine economy of our Lord, whereas none of those in hell have such participation, whose chief torment is the separation from God).

    It follows that those who died in the state of grace are saved.

    I have heard some conjecture that those who die in the state of grace outside the Church (but united to Her), are relegated to limbo.  I’m not sure what the basis for this conjecture is, since limbo there was a limbus patrarum (limbo of the fathers in the OLD Testament times before Christ), and a limbus puerorum (limbo of children who die before baptism), but the proposition of yet a new third limbo would seem to be a novel invention.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • But grace exists outside the Church, and the moment a non-Catholic enters the state of sanctifying grace, he is joined to the Church, despite not being a member of it.

    You kindof contradict yourself here.  ACTUAL grace certainly does exist outside the Church.  Church actually has condemned the contrary.  But if you're saying that the moment a person enters sanctifying grace, then he is thereby within the Church, then there can only be sanctifying grace WITHIN the Church.  This is neither here nor there in terms of the main argument, but it's important.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I have heard some conjecture that those who die in the state of grace outside the Church (but united to Her), are relegated to limbo.  I’m not sure what the basis for this conjecture is, since limbo there was a limbus patrarum (limbo of the fathers in the OLD Testament times before Christ), and a limbus puerorum (limbo of children who die before baptism), but the proposition of yet a new third limbo would seem to be a novel invention.

    I don't believe that God would allow someone in a state of sanctifying grace to leave this life without the Sacrament of Baptism.  I do believe, however, that there are many who enjoy a degree of natural happiness for eternity depending on the natural good or bad they did during their lives.  As the Church teaches, the sufferings of hell vary in proportion to how bad one has been in life.  If you have a naturally-virtuous person who lived his life doing good and avoiding evil, then that person most certainly does not suffer the same fate as a Judas Iscariot.  I believe that even adults can approach an eternal state that is very close to limbic happiness, at the very least entailing relatively light amounts of suffering, perhaps no more than one might experience during life on earth here.

    I do believe that this is the major hangup some people have against not allowing NATURALLY-VIRTUOUS people to be saved, this vision of hell as a monolithic place where even a virtuous Jєωιѕн mother who gave her life for her children and was kind and generous to everyone in this life is playing checkers with Joe Stalin in a fiery cauldron for all eternity.  So people recoil at the "injustice" of such a thought.  But the Church itself in one of the EENS definitions clearly states that the degree of suffering varies in proportion to how souls conducted themselves in this life.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • But grace exists outside the Church, and the moment a non-Catholic enters the state of sanctifying grace, he is joined to the Church, despite not being a member of it.

    If that weren’t so, the implication would be that those dying in the state of grace were damned, which is absurd, since all the damned are damned precisely for dying outside the state of grace (and on a more technical level, being in the state of grace is a participation in the divine economy of our Lord, whereas none of those in hell have such participation, whose chief torment is the separation from God).

    It follows that those who died in the state of grace are saved.

    I have heard some conjecture that those who die in the state of grace outside the Church (but united to Her), are relegated to limbo.  I’m not sure what the basis for this conjecture is, since limbo there was a limbus patrarum (limbo of the fathers in the OLD Testament times before Christ), and a limbus puerorum (limbo of children who die before baptism), but the proposition of yet a new third limbo would seem to be a novel invention.
    If an adult outside of the Church has never sinned, or if that adult somehow attained forgiveness of his sins, impossible as that may or may not be, is not in question. Some where there is a papal teaching that there is no forgiveness of sin outside of the Church. But whatever, who cares about that?

    Our acceptance of Actual Grace drives us toward the faith and into the Church. Sanctifying grace can only be had within the Church, and it is only by dying in that grace one attains salvation. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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  • You kindof contradict yourself here.  ACTUAL grace certainly does exist outside the Church.  Church actually has condemned the contrary.  But if you're saying that the moment a person enters sanctifying grace, then he is thereby within the Church, then there can only be sanctifying grace WITHIN the Church.  This is neither here nor there in terms of the main argument, but it's important.
    I posted before seeing this but yes, this.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • David, if you want to study/debate theology, you had better have patience and an aptitude for precise language, which is necessary for proper distinctions.  You started this thread claiming distinctions are necessary and then your syllogisms above overly-generalize your opponent’s views.  That’s wrong.
    He has not defined BOD or invincible ignorance and basically just keeps posting those words and one strawman after another. His argument is that his undefined BOD/Inv Ign is true or else the Church has gone into heresy. Fools rush in....

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • I don't believe that God would allow someone in a state of sanctifying grace to leave this life without the Sacrament of Baptism.  I do believe, however, that there are many who enjoy a degree of natural happiness for eternity depending on the natural good or bad they did during their lives.  As the Church teaches, the sufferings of hell vary in proportion to how bad one has been in life.  If you have a naturally-virtuous person who lived his life doing good and avoiding evil, then that person most certainly does not suffer the same fate as a Judas Iscariot.  I believe that even adults can approach an eternal state that is very close to limbic happiness, at the very least entailing relatively light amounts of suffering, perhaps no more than one might experience during life on earth here.

    I do believe that this is the major hangup some people have against not allowing NATURALLY-VIRTUOUS people to be saved, this vision of hell as a monolithic place where even a virtuous Jєωιѕн mother who gave her life for her children and was kind and generous to everyone in this life is playing checkers with Joe Stalin in a fiery cauldron for all eternity.  So people recoil at the "injustice" of such a thought.  But the Church itself in one of the EENS definitions clearly states that the degree of suffering varies in proportion to how souls conducted themselves in this life.
    I said “joined to” not “member of.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    But grace exists outside the Church, and the moment a non-Catholic enters the state of sanctifying grace, he is joined to the Church, despite not being a member of it.
    1.  As Lad said, actual graces exist outside the Church.
    2.  One is only "joined" to the Church he if is a member.  Non-members are not "joined"; this is a modernist ideal.
    3.  One cannot be in the state of sanctifying grace, unless he is 1) repentant of his mortal sins (if any), 2) receives remission of Original Sin.
    4.  Contrition for one's sins, no matter how perfect, cannot remove Original Sin from one's soul.  Ergo, the unbaptized cannot attain sanctifying grace apart from Baptism.
    5.  Baptism here defined means the actual sacrament, or the desire of it (accompanied by the desire to enter the Church and an acceptance of the Trinity/Incarnation, at minimum).
    6.  All actual graces that an unbaptized person receives through an act of contrition are given that they may seek out and accept the Church, only through which they can be saved.
    7.  An unbaptized person who dies repentant for their sins, but not desiring of the Church or baptism, would go to Limbo as they cannot enter heaven with Original Sin on their souls.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • 1.  As Lad said, actual graces exist outside the Church.
    2.  One is only "joined" to the Church he if is a member.  Non-members are not "joined"; this is a modernist ideal.
    3.  One cannot be in the state of sanctifying grace, unless he is 1) repentant of his mortal sins (if any), 2) receives remission of Original Sin.
    4.  Contrition for one's sins, no matter how perfect, cannot remove Original Sin from one's soul.  Ergo, the unbaptized cannot attain sanctifying grace apart from Baptism.
    5.  Baptism here defined means the actual sacrament, or the desire of it (accompanied by the desire to enter the Church and an acceptance of the Trinity/Incarnation, at minimum).
    6.  All actual graces that an unbaptized person receives through an act of contrition are given that they may seek out and accept the Church, only through which they can be saved.
    7.  An unbaptized person who dies repentant for their sins, but not desiring of the Church or baptism, would go to Limbo as they cannot enter heaven with Original Sin on their souls.
    Is an Orthodox infant who is baptized a “member” of the Catholic Church?
    Or is he, being in the state of grace, simply “joined to” the Church?
    I contend the latter
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Is an Orthodox infant who is baptized a “member” of the Catholic Church?
    Or is he, being in the state of grace, simply “joined to” the Church?
    I contend the latter
    We are talking about the invincibly ignorant situation and BOD.  There's no need to further muddy the waters with discussions of schismatic groups.    

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • 7.  An unbaptized person who dies repentant for their sins, but not desiring of the Church or baptism, would go to Limbo as they cannot enter heaven with Original Sin on their souls.
    Only children who die unbaptized before the age of reason go to Limbo.

    There are however different degrees of punishment in hell. A "good" Hindu may end up in a part of Hell that is like living in Alaska in the Winter like the Eskimos, or living in Panama swamps like the Indians did, or being stuck 24/7 on Cathinfo info putting up with EENS deniers "what about ifs".


    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • I don't believe that God would allow someone in a state of sanctifying grace to leave this life without the Sacrament of Baptism.  I do believe, however, that there are many who enjoy a degree of natural happiness for eternity depending on the natural good or bad they did during their lives.  As the Church teaches, the sufferings of hell vary in proportion to how bad one has been in life.  If you have a naturally-virtuous person who lived his life doing good and avoiding evil, then that person most certainly does not suffer the same fate as a Judas Iscariot.  I believe that even adults can approach an eternal state that is very close to limbic happiness, at the very least entailing relatively light amounts of suffering, perhaps no more than one might experience during life on earth here.

    I do believe that this is the major hangup some people have against not allowing NATURALLY-VIRTUOUS people to be saved, this vision of hell as a monolithic place where even a virtuous Jєωιѕн mother who gave her life for her children and was kind and generous to everyone in this life is playing checkers with Joe Stalin in a fiery cauldron for all eternity.  So people recoil at the "injustice" of such a thought.  But the Church itself in one of the EENS definitions clearly states that the degree of suffering varies in proportion to how souls conducted themselves in this life.
    These people you speak of are completely unknown.  The only people we know for certain are saved (in Heaven) have all publicly professed the Catholic faith.  It's possible that St Emerentiana and other catechumen saints had received the Sacrament of Baptism.  If it's possible to speculate that there could be naturally-virtuous people, it's also possible to speculate that there are no naturally-virtuous people and that there have never been any.  In which case, the existence of BOD and invincible ignorance is irrelevant.  And I would argue that the existing evidence favors the belief that naturally-virtuous people don't exist.  I've personally known hundreds of traditional Catholics and every one of them went to confession periodically.  I've personally known hundreds of non-Catholics and I cannot recall a single one who didn't at least tacitly approve of some mortal sin or another (e.g. contraception).  I've read a lot about various non-Catholic peoples all over the world and I know of none that is free from some cultural deficiency or another that results in the promotion of natural-viciousness.  In order for someone to be naturally-virtuous and non-Catholic, they would have to be counter-cultural.  But I know of no counter-cultural people who are not MORE vicious than the culture they are rejecting.  How rare is it to hear about someone who expressed some regret about their past behavior on their death bed?  But usually this is some regret about having offended someone they cared for.  I don't believe I've ever heard of a non-Catholic who regretted having offended God.  So in the end, the heated debates concerning BOD and invincible ignorance (or implicit faith) may be completely irrelevant.  It may be that no one has ever been or ever will be saved by BOD or implicit faith even if it is possible for such a thing to occur.  If you doubt that, consider that only 8 people were saved on Noe's Ark (out of probably millions of souls).  It wasn't because they were naturally virtuous.  It was because God chose them and instructed Noe and he obeyed. We can never under-estimate the power of God's mercy but neither should we under-estimate the destructive power of original sin.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Only children who die unbaptized before the age of reason go to Limbo.

    There are however different degrees of punishment in hell.
    My understanding is that Limbo is a part of hell, so you're describing the same place.  Hell's main punishment, strictly speaking, is the absence of God, so those who are in Limbo do suffer this loss, even if they suffer no physical torment.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    It's possible that St Emerentiana and other catechumen saints had received the Sacrament of Baptism. 
    It's more than possible, it's probable, based on historical evidence of this practice during the persecutions.
    .
    Quote
    If it's possible to speculate that there could be naturally-virtuous people, it's also possible to speculate that there are no naturally-virtuous people and that there have never been any. 
    Fantastic point.
    .

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • My understanding is that Limbo is a part of hell, so you're describing the same place.  Hell's main punishment, strictly speaking, is the absence of God, so those who are in Limbo do suffer this loss, even if they suffer no physical torment.
    Though Limbo is a part of Hell, it only contains children who died unbaptized before the age of reason, there are no adults. Limbo is different in that the children suffer absolutely no pains like those in Hell.  The adults in Hell suffer the pains of Hell to different degrees according to God's justice.  The children in Limbo also do not really suffer the loss of God because they never knew it.