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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 33107 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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  • So can someone prove to me that the ecclesiology that most trads hold to is definitively not Tridentine ecclesiology but is really only Vatican ii ecclesiology?  I’ve seen ladislaus assert this a lot but I haven’t yet seen it conclusively proven.  But that does seem to be the core issue 

    Offline forlorn

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  • I'm not sure that the SSPX has an official position.  I had a seminary professor at Winona (SSPX USA) who held the position of St. Thomas that explicit faith was necessary for salvation.  He was "chided" a little for this opinion by +Williamson as being "close to Feeneyism," but he was not asked to stop teaching it nor disciplined in any way.  I mean, it is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas after all.  So, apart from the St. Benedict Center, you'll find some priests (and even a bishop or two) from time to time who still hold a stricter interpretation of EENS dogma, but no formal society ... outside of the St. Benedict Center.  Now, OPEN Feeneyites would probably not last long in the SSPX, but I'm sure there are some in the closet, so to speak ... just as there are also many closet sedevacantists.
    I mean don't you find it strange that even clergymen like +Williamson believe non-Christians can be saved? The teachings of the Church seem absolutely clear that they cannot, yet even men who absolutely reject Vatican 2 with no compromise teach that they can. For most of them it could be chalked down to human respect, but +Williamson has never been afraid to bring on the ire and hatred of society by speaking the truth. He denied the h0Ɩ0cαųst on public television in Germany, where it's a crime to do so, so clearly he's not afraid to say what he holds to be true for fear of what others would think. And yet he still teaches what seems to be Vatican ecclesiology on this issue, while he denounces Vatican 2 and the "new religion" daily. It's bizarre, and I can't explain it.

    Does he have any lectures explaining his view by any chance? 


    Online Ladislaus

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  • So can someone prove to me that the ecclesiology that most trads hold to is definitively not Tridentine ecclesiology but is really only Vatican ii ecclesiology?  I’ve seen ladislaus assert this a lot but I haven’t yet seen it conclusively proven.  But that does seem to be the core issue

    Tridentine ecclesiology emphasized the visibility of the Church, teaching that the Catholic Church is a visible society ... against the Protestant heresies to the contrary.  St. Robert Bellarmine emphasized this aspect of the Church, almost to a fault.  Nevertheless, it was considered that only those were members of the Church who could be visibly identified as such through their reception of the Sacraments, profession of the true faith, and subjection to the Holy Father.  There were a couple of great articles referenced in the one sedevacantism thread (where PC2 and Don Paolo were having it out), one from Msgr. Fenton and another by a Father Lawlor.  Both gave great detailed histories of Traditional Catholic ecclesiology.

    Vatican II ecclesiology, however, has more of a concentric circle look to it, where the Church subsists in the Catholic Church and the core of the Church is the Catholic Church proper, but then people have various degree of invisible belonging to this Church, where they are invisibly in the Church while being visibly outside.

    Now, if you hold that non-Catholics can be saved, you must hold that they are in the Church, since there can be no salvation outside the Church.  So here you have a Church that consists of both actual Catholics, visibly united, as well as those who are invisibly united to and within the Church.  Which of these two ecclesiologies does this more resemble?

    Online Ladislaus

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  • I mean don't you find it strange that even clergymen like +Williamson believe non-Christians can be saved? The teachings of the Church seem absolutely clear that they cannot, yet even men who absolutely reject Vatican 2 with no compromise teach that they can. For most of them it could be chalked down to human respect, but +Williamson has never been afraid to bring on the ire and hatred of society by speaking the truth. He denied the h0Ɩ0cαųst on public television in Germany, where it's a crime to do so, so clearly he's not afraid to say what he holds to be true for fear of what others would think. And yet he still teaches what seems to be Vatican ecclesiology on this issue, while he denounces Vatican 2 and the "new religion" daily. It's bizarre, and I can't explain it.

    Does he have any lectures explaining his view by any chance?

    No, +Williamson was not one for human respect, but he does seem to make a notable exception for Archbishop Lefebvre.  He followed Archbishop Lefebvre almost blindly no ever matter.  I don't know of any video where he has gone into depth on this subject.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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  • Tridentine ecclesiology emphasized the visibility of the Church, teaching that the Catholic Church is a visible society ... against the Protestant heresies to the contrary.  St. Robert Bellarmine emphasized this aspect of the Church, almost to a fault.  Nevertheless, it was considered that only those were members of the Church who could be visibly identified as such through their reception of the Sacraments, profession of the true faith, and subjection to the Holy Father.  There were a couple of great articles referenced in the one sedevacantism thread (where PC2 and Don Paolo were having it out), one from Msgr. Fenton and another by a Father Lawlor.  Both gave great detailed histories of Traditional Catholic ecclesiology.

    Vatican II ecclesiology, however, has more of a concentric circle look to it, where the Church subsists in the Catholic Church and the core of the Church is the Catholic Church proper, but then people have various degree of invisible belonging to this Church, where they are invisibly in the Church while being visibly outside.

    Now, if you hold that non-Catholics can be saved, you must hold that they are in the Church, since there can be no salvation outside the Church.  So here you have a Church that consists of both actual Catholics, visibly united, as well as those who are invisibly united to and within the Church.  Which of these two ecclesiologies does this more resemble?
    If your presuppositions are true, that makes sense.  What I'm asking is for the proof that Tridentine ecclesiology absolutely doesn't allow for invisible membership.


    Offline ascanio1

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  • Back on the BoD topic.

    A FSSPX priest confirmed that the Fraternity believes that BoD is, in principle possible, albeit truly in borderline circuмstances and the contingency is, for all practical purposes, extremely unlikely.

    He explained also that anything is possible for God and, therefore, he can save any soul at his pleasure. Even further removed from BoD.

    However, he added, it would be foolish for anyone to rely on the off chance that God would save us, un-deservingly, and we should strive for salvation by adhering to correct catechism.
    Tommaso
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    Online Ladislaus

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  • Back on the BoD topic.

    A FSSPX priest confirmed that the Fraternity believes that BoD is, in principle possible, albeit truly in borderline circuмstances and the contingency is, for all practical purposes, extremely unlikely.

    He explained also that anything is possible for God and, therefore, he can save any soul at his pleasure. Even further removed from BoD.

    However, he added, it would be foolish for anyone to rely on the off chance that God would save us, un-deservingly, and we should strive for salvation by adhering to correct catechism.

    Did he articulate a requirement for explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity in order for BoD to be possible?  That's more important in the grand scheme of things (in terms of its theological consequences) than BoD itself.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Back on the BoD topic.

    A FSSPX priest confirmed that the Fraternity believes that BoD is, in principle possible, albeit truly in borderline circuмstances and the contingency is, for all practical purposes, extremely unlikely.

    He explained also that anything is possible for God and, therefore, he can save any soul at his pleasure. Even further removed from BoD.

    However, he added, it would be foolish for anyone to rely on the off chance that God would save us, un-deservingly, and we should strive for salvation by adhering to correct catechism.
    But used in this way, it's not true that anything is possible for God.

    God cannot lie, God cannot deceive nor be deceived, nor can God break a promise He makes and so on. It is good to remember that the most necessary of all the requirements for a BOD, is that God rescinds the requirement for salvation that He Himself established as being absolutely necessary for salvation - for no reason whatsoever.

    From Who Shall Ascend?:
    "...The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children..."

    Which is to say that if God can arrange for you to be baptized, and He did, then it is by that very same providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires and is willing to receive it - because nothing is impossible for God.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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  • But used in this way, it's not true that anything is possible for God.

    Correct.  We're not interested in what God CAN do, but rather, in what God has said that He DOES do.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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  • I’m sure that if you got down to the nuts and bolts of the OP’s question, most of the trad organization’s leaders would say that the deceased person who was a member of the false religion would NOT be saved by or in that false religion, but in spite of it. The person who was “saved” would actually have to be somehow incorporated into the Church and thus have died inside the Church, for outside of Her no one can be saved. That is dogma, period. Also, it must be remembered that the individual in question must have, at the bare minimum, knowledge of the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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  • I’m sure that if you got down to the nuts and bolts of the OP’s question, most of the trad organization’s leaders would say that the deceased person who was a member of the false religion would NOT be saved by or in that false religion, but in spite of it. The person who was “saved” would actually have to be somehow incorporated into the Church and thus have died inside the Church, for outside of Her no one can be saved. That is dogma, period. Also, it must be remembered that the individual in question must have, at the bare minimum, knowledge of the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption.

    If only these leaders were this careful, but alas they are not.  Even +Lefebvre wrote off the necessity of the Church as mere instrumental cause, without explaining that these people must be within the Church.

    But here's the problem.  If we say that those who are not Catholic could be saved, as you correctly put it, we must assert that they were INSIDE the Church.  But what does that do to Catholic ecclesiology ... when within the Church you find not only Catholics but all manner of heretics?  In essence, that is Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell.


    Offline Davidmehs

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  • First time commenter here so take it easy lol.

    But in regards to EENS and what we typically think in regards to BOD a couple distinctions should be made. First and foremost if we are gonna compare Catholic and V2 Ecclisiology we have to do it honestly and actually show what they say. 

    Catholic teaching= only the Catholic religion/Church is salvific.
    V2= the Holy Ghost uses other religions as a means of salvation.

    So for people to rip on Trad priests claiming they believe the same thing is just not true. If you have a problem with them using phrases like "in spite of paganism " or when they refer to people saved "in false religions" its obviously clear they do not mean the above V2 Ecclisiology as demonstrated by other supporting comments. If you think it's wrong to say that, that's your opinion, but to characterize them the same as modernists is dishonest when they follow the Thomistic theology of approved theologians to get those conclusions.

    Now to me it seems people get so hung up on phrases like these they dont understand that fact that a BOD recipient would not be properly speaking, in the visible Church Militant, because by necessity they have died. So they are not saying some random Hindu in India is part of the Church, what they are saying is if such a person, is actually in Invincible ignorance, follows the prescribed conditions as laid out by Pius IX and his contemporaries, such a person COULD be saved by a rare miracle before they die, being converted to the Faith. Now as to how much they must explicitly know has been debated by theologians and the popular opinion is that the Trinity, Incarnation and faith in Christ is a must, so following the principles of the approved teachings on BOD and Invincible ignorance it stands to reason God would enlighten such a person. So they die as Catholics not pagans, that is not the same as V2 which says the HINDU RELIGION in and of itself can be salvific. Thanks for reading.

    Offline Lion of Juda

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  • Vatican II, and all who excuse it, violate the first Commandment for acknowledging the existence of other "gods".

    Offline trad123

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  • So for people to rip on Trad priests claiming they believe the same thing is just not true. If you have a problem with them using phrases like "in spite of paganism " or when they refer to people saved "in false religions" its obviously clear they do not mean the above V2 Ecclisiology as demonstrated by other supporting comments.

    If a person dies professing the Hindu faith, they're a Hindu unto death. If a person dies professing the tenants of Luther, they're a Lutheran unto death. What many are proposing is not the possibility of enlightenment of those from error to truth before death, neither privately or publicly, but the possibility of salvation of those who die adhering to false religions. It is not a death bed conversion to the Catholic faith that is being pushed, but the possibility of actual Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Protestants, Eastern Schismatics, etc., dying in the state of grace.

    They absolutely believe in "partial communion" whether they realize it or not.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/vatican-ii-ecclesiology-and-cmri-sspx-sspv-etc/msg663088/#msg663088


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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  • Once it is understood that the Catholic faith is absolutely necessary for salvation, it is then that baptism of desire becomes irrelevant.

    A catechumen prevented by an unforeseen accident from receiving the sacrament of Baptism before death, I dare say, is more aptly said to be prevented by God Himself.

    If all the hairs of our heads are numbered, and seeing that He gives us sufficient food, clothing, and a roof over our heads, how much more that we should possess the sacrament before death?


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/st-bellarmine-on-the-unbaptized/msg652540/#msg652540


    Saint Augustine:


    Quote
    Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, arc born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.