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Author Topic: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles  (Read 6023 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2020, 07:57:58 PM »
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    a fourth baptism called baptism by illumination. ....But just look how far these theologians go and how much confusion they sow among the laity.
    Why not?  Isn’t a baby “sincere” in his love for God?  A baby can’t sin against God, so they are conceived with an implicit love for God, right?  And if they can’t sin, isn’t their love of God as “perfect as it can be”?  
    .
    Is it the baby’s fault that they died?  Of course not.  If they had been born, they would’ve been baptized, right?  They would’ve had a chance to love God, right?  So how can they be penalized for dying?  Surely they go straight to heaven.  (Modernism thought process is finally over).
    .
    If you believe any part of the above, then you might as well believe what the Mormons believe and go to their temple and have your ANCESTORS baptized.  It follows the same logic.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #46 on: February 23, 2020, 08:07:41 PM »
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  • Says the person who won't explain himself.

    We should be able to have a reasonable discussion about doctrine without it being personal. But you and Laddy insist on making it personal with insults. THAT impedes reasonable discussion.

    The fact is various church docuмents speak of invincible ignorance, baptism of desire, and implicit desire.

    But none of them define very well (or at all) what these terms mean. What modernists do with that is not in the texts.

    On the other hand:That's also not in the texts.
    The only "interpretation" of the St. Pius X catechism I did was to point out it teaches implicit BOD. Which it does, no? Is that "liberally interpret[ing]" the catechism?

    Go ahead an believe in salvation by implicit desire, Stan.  But then you'd be a schismatic for rejecting Vatican II.  There's no purported error in Vatican II is not simply a logical consequence of this soteriology and ecclesiology.

    BTW, every theologian in the world endorsed Vatican II.

    Contradictions and confusion are a sign of bad will.  You simply want implicit BoD to be true, and yet you want to eat your cake too by continuing to denounce Vatican II as heretical.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #47 on: February 23, 2020, 08:12:40 PM »
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  • You keep repeating the assertion that Pius IX and the Catechism of St. Pius X teach the possibility of salvation by implicit desire.  But even Dulles, an EENS laxist, asserts that Pius IX COULD HAVE MEANT that additional grace is needed for justification/salvation.  There's no "could have" about it.  He clearly says that these types will be saved by "LIGHT" (the opposite of ignorance).  And Pius IX denounced YOUR VERY INTERPRETATION of his teaching as an "atrocious injustice" to him.  Same thing is true of St. Pius X who deliberately uses the term that these are "on the way" of salvation.  There's simply nothing there.  But then you reject the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus regarding the need for explicit faith.  You reject the 1703 Holy Office rejection that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are not required by necessity of means for salvation.  You're a hot mess.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #48 on: February 23, 2020, 08:19:18 PM »
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  • Are any of you familiar with the popular catechism "My Catholic Faith"? It has been around for a long time; the first printing was in the late 40's, I think, and has an imprimatur and nihil obstat. In many ways it is a good book for us to teach with and yet in the chapter on Baptism it suggests that according to some theologians there may be a fourth baptism called baptism by illumination.  Some of the faithful who lived around Powers Lake with Father Frederick Nelson (RIP) believed in this "baptism" and consoled parents who had lost a child in utero saying that if parents were to place their hands on the mother's belly and pray something like the Apostles' Creed the unborn would be baptized and saved. Now,don't ask me to explain something I don't understand and completely disagree with. I'm just relating what one of the believers tried to persuade me to believe.  But just look how far these theologians go and how much confusion they sow among the laity.

    Yes, there's a bizarre extension of infallibility among the dogmatic sedevacantists to practically include anything that contains an imprimatur and nihil obstat.  This is why the sedevacantists tend to be the absolute worst when it comes to EENS.  On the other hand, you have the Dimonds who do a great disservice to the cause (the defense of EENS, that is) by declaring Baptism of Desire even for catechumens to be heretical.

    I believe that Cajetan was the first to float a Baptism by VICARIOUS DESIRE for unbaptized infants.  This was explicitly rejected by several popes.  We creep closer and closer to full-blown Pelagianism.  Vatican II is in fact the rehabilitation of Pelagius and the victory of Pelagianism.  That's why I have St. Augustine as my avatar picture.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #49 on: February 23, 2020, 08:23:31 PM »
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  • Contradictions and confusion are a sign of bad will.
    Well, you said it, not me. Are your contradictions also a sign of bad will?


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #50 on: February 23, 2020, 08:32:41 PM »
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  • You say you follow St Thomas, who requires explicit faith, then you post supporting implicit desire.  Yeah, I’d say you’re confused.  And, no, a catechism isn’t a formal teaching.  No one has to believe in implicit desire...it’s not even explained what it is.  
    The Catechism of Pius X teaches implicit BOD. It's a catechism. It teaches in the manner of a catechism.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #51 on: February 23, 2020, 08:39:51 PM »
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #52 on: February 23, 2020, 08:43:02 PM »
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    The Catechism of Pius X teaches implicit BOD.
    No it doesn’t.  The question was “can non Catholics be saved?”  The answer was not clear.  It said they can be “on the road to salvation” if they do x, y and z.  It was a non-answer.
    .
    Similar question with similar reasoning....”can a person in mortal sin make it to heaven?”.  Modernist Answer:  If that person is sorry for their sins, asks God for forgiveness and promises to go to confession, then God will forgive them....in other words, not a clear answer to the question.
    .
    Real answer:  No.  


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #53 on: February 23, 2020, 08:49:54 PM »
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  • No it doesn’t.  The question was “can non Catholics be saved?”  The answer was not clear.  It said they can be “on the road to salvation” if they do x, y and z.  It was a non-answer.
    In English, it says "or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism". If you want to argue that "implicit desire of Baptism" is something different from "implicit Baptism of desire", then say so. Whatever that has to do with salvation is a separate thing. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #54 on: February 23, 2020, 09:01:37 PM »
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  • You’re missing the point.  Being “saved” in a false religion is not equal to being “on the road to salvation”.  The catechism is describing the circuмstances for one to LEAVE their FALSE religion and JOIN the CHRUCH.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #55 on: February 24, 2020, 07:18:02 AM »
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  • You’re missing the point.  Being “saved” in a false religion is not equal to being “on the road to salvation”.  The catechism is describing the circuмstances for one to LEAVE their FALSE religion and JOIN the CHURCH.  
    To be fair to Stanley, you and Lad have not responded to Q 17 in Pius X's Catechism (only Q 29):

    Q17. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.


    The "on the way to salvation" mentioned in Q29 may mean that such a person must also have the act of perfect love of God or act of perfect contrition mentioned here, not just implicit desire for baptism.



    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #56 on: February 24, 2020, 07:24:25 AM »
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  • Are any of you familiar with the popular catechism "My Catholic Faith"? It has been around for a long time; the first printing was in the late 40's, I think, and has an imprimatur and nihil obstat. In many ways it is a good book for us to teach with and yet in the chapter on Baptism it suggests that according to some theologians there may be a fourth baptism called baptism by illumination.  
    That is interesting.  I had never heard of that.  At least in that catechism it does state quite clearly that this so-called fourth baptism is "according to some theologians".  I have never seen a catechism that refers to theologians in that way.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #57 on: February 24, 2020, 07:50:20 AM »
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  • .
    From the Catechism of Pius X:

    Q29. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
    A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
    .

    .
    Ok, so let's look at the problematic phrases, which are open to interpretation (and which Modernists like Rahner, Dulles, etc) all used in their successful attempts to water down EENS to pave the way for V2's ultra-heresies.
    .
    1.  Good Faith - what is this?  How is it defined?  How does one know who has it or not?  None one knows.  It's subjective, it's open-ended, it's open to sentiment and emotion.
    2.  Implicit Desire - what exactly does this mean?  Is this St Alphonsus' implicit desire?  Or Rahner's "anonymous catholic" version?  It's not precise at all.  Dangerous theology.
    3.  Sincerely seeks the truth - This seems pretty straightforward, right?  Except that only God knows who is sincere or not, since none of us can read hearts.  So, again, dangerous theology.
    4.  God's will as best he can - Same as above; only God can know this.  Doctrine is black and white.  This is theological opinion and is dangerous for most people to think about.
    5.  On the way of salvation - What does this even mean?  A liberal/modernist would define this as the person can "be saved in his current non-Catholic state".  An orthodox/traditional catholic would say that this means the non-Catholic is "progressing towards the full truth of the Church, which God will give to him, if he continues searching."
    .
    Do you see the MAJOR DIFFERENCE between these 2 interpretations?  Do you see the major problem with imprecise language?  Don't you see how this was the exact same method used at V2?
    .
    Yes, I do. I am definitely beginning to question this.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #58 on: February 24, 2020, 08:50:03 AM »
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    To be fair to Stanley, you and Lad have not responded to Q 17 in Pius X's Catechism (only Q 29):

    Q17. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
    The scenarios where someone dies for the Faith are so remote that I don't waste time on baptism of blood.

    Quote
    The "on the way to salvation" mentioned in Q29 may mean that such a person must also have the act of perfect love of God or act of perfect contrition mentioned here, not just implicit desire for baptism.
    You can't mix-and-match catechism answers to make up your own theology.  If you want to know, definitively, what is required for BOD (and by extension, BOB) then go read Trent on justification and preparation for Baptism.  Trent lays out the spiritual requirements necessary to join the Church - EXPLICIT FAITH, sorrow for sins, a change of life, and a desire for baptism.  This is exactly what St Thomas said.  More or less, it's what St Alphonsus said.  Anything or anyone who preaches something less is anti-Trent.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #59 on: February 24, 2020, 05:19:10 PM »
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  • The scenarios where someone dies for the Faith are so remote that I don't waste time on baptism of blood.
    You can't mix-and-match catechism answers to make up your own theology.  If you want to know, definitively, what is required for BOD (and by extension, BOB) then go read Trent on justification and preparation for Baptism.  Trent lays out the spiritual requirements necessary to join the Church - EXPLICIT FAITH, sorrow for sins, a change of life, and a desire for baptism.  This is exactly what St Thomas said.  More or less, it's what St Alphonsus said.  Anything or anyone who preaches something less is anti-Trent.
    But you still haven't responded to the reference to implicit desire in Q17 of Pius X's Catechism.