Author Topic: Which Sacraments are Necessary Unto Salvation? (Read 9975 times)

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2014, 08:17:04 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

After reading your posts in this thread, you obviously misnamed the title of this thread.
You should have named it:

"Which Desires are Necessary Unto Salvation?

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Does the desire for Holy Communion merit one who has not yet desired Baptism? Penance?

Again:

What does that have to do with anything??? The point is that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire with the correct circuмstances applying in each case.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2014, 08:28:55 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

No, I do no agree; that's the very crux of my position. Yes, Penance can achieve justification when perfect contrition is combined with a desire for Penance. Holy Communion is necessary by necessity of precept and by way of moral necessity, so desire for it doesn't figure in. Baptism is a character Sacrament and consequently cannot be had by desire any more than Holy Orders can be had be desire; its effect depends upon the character imprinted upon the soul.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2014, 08:35:47 AM »

Trent lumps the Sacraments together but then explicitly states that not all the Sacraments are necessary for all, e.g. some of them (such as Penance) are conditionally necessary, i.e. making it clear that what applies to one Sacrament does not necessarily apply to the others. Trent goes out of its way to emphasize how different Penance is from Baptism. Baptism, by way of the character, is the gateway to all the other Sacraments. Quite a few Church Fathers taught that the "seal" (character) was an essential part of the grace of Baptism, and I hold to that also. It's the seal which conforms the soul to the likeness of Christ and makes us recognized by the Father as His sons. Without being conformed into sons of the Father through this character, we can never enter into the life of the Holy Trinity and therefore see God as He is (from within the Holy Trinity) in the beatific vision.

Trent dogmatically teaches that those without the character of Baptism are not subject to the Holy Father, and the Church teaches dogmatically that those not subject to the Holy Father cannot be saved.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2014, 09:09:36 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

No, I do no agree; that's the very crux of my position. Yes, Penance can achieve justification when perfect contrition is combined with a desire for Penance. Holy Communion is necessary by necessity of precept and by way of moral necessity, so desire for it doesn't figure in. Baptism is a character Sacrament and consequently cannot be had by desire any more than Holy Orders can be had be desire; its effect depends upon the character imprinted upon the soul.

Who cares if you agree or not. The Catholic Church teaches it whether you like it or not. For you it is all about whether you agree or not. You hold your intellect above all others. If anyone disagrees with you including the Church they are wrong and you are right. You continually make it worse on yourself by repeatedly disseminating your errors.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** July 30, 2014, 10:35:07 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Who cares if you agree or not. The Catholic Church teaches it whether you like it or not. For you it is all about whether you agree or not.

Again, Logic 101 please. I don't agree that what you claim is Church teaching is actually teaching. I obviously am not saying that I do not agree with Church teaching.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #20 on:** July 30, 2014, 10:36:38 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

You continually make it worse on yourself by repeatedly disseminating your errors.

MY errors? You are trying to disseminate Pelagianism.

Cantarella · « **Reply #21 on:** July 30, 2014, 10:48:44 AM »

Quote

As for Canon 5, no one said baptism is optional! Now if it said "water" baptism you would have a point. But the Council cannot contradict itself, therefore it didn't qualify the word Baptism with "water" in that canon. Baptism is not optional; it must be received in actuality or desire.

Yet, the BODers here say that Baptism of Desire is not the sacrament. What is it, then?

If BOD is not the sacrament, then there is a clear denial of the following dogmatic statement:

Quote

Can. 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional , that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2014, 10:51:59 AM »

Quote

It is precisely because of the complexity of and the wealth of meaning contained in this fundamental notion of the Catholic Church that the theologians have had to set forth many types of definitions of the Church. There are three main types of definitions which scholastic theology recognizes as applicable to the Church Militant. The first of these, the widest or most general kind of definition of the Church, applies to the entire company of those joined to God in Jesus Christ. It takes in the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Suffering in Purgatory, and the Church Militant here on earth. The second variety of definition is restricted to the Church Militant, but it considers this company, not only according to its form and structure under the economy of the New Testament, but according to its conditions under the Old Dispensation also. The third type of definition explains only the Church Militant of the New Testament. Within this type there are several subdivisions, all of which contribute powerfully to the explanation of the basic notion of the Church, as this is brought out in the various names and figures used to designate the Church in the inspired books of the New Testament. Fenton

Cantarella · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2014, 11:00:10 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

As for Canon 5, no one said baptism is optional! Now if it said "water" baptism you would have a point. But the Council cannot contradict itself, therefore it didn't qualify the word Baptism with "water" in that canon. Baptism is not optional; it must be received in actuality or desire.

As for Canon 2. A metaphor is a word or phrase used to describe or represent something else that is tangible (a person, place, thing or action). For example referring to God as "A Mighty Fortress" would be to use a metaphor. Or he's "fishing" for something (fishing meaning looking). I do not believe that water is being used to describe something else or an action, and neither does the Church. Water means water and not anything else. It must be received in actuality or desire. Therefore Canon 2 does not apply to your argument.

As for your other argument, I believe you are implying that the Grace of Justification does not merit salvation. This is proven false, not only from the context of Canon IV-Session 7, but from another Canon in the Council which says clearly that those who merit the Grace of Justification, merit Eternal Life...

If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. The Council of Trent-Session VI-CANON XXXII

Again, the cited paragraphs are dealing with justification (a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior). Justification and Salvation are two different things. Justification does not necessarily merit the Grace of salvation. One can be justified and then damn oneself anyway.

Most importantly, "Baptism of Desire" (which is NOT de fide) CANNOT under circuмstance apply to non-Catholics. If ever possible (and this is only known to God) it would apply to pious catechumens at the point of death that already hold the Catholic Faith. The reason for this is that the Catholic Faith is the foundation for all justification.

Against Protestantism, Trent stated that Faith is not the only thing necessary for justification, but it is indeed necessary:

Quote

“But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons;…” (Session 6, Chapter VIII, Decree Concerning Justification).

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2014, 11:03:52 AM »

Quote

These three basic types of definitions of the true Church of Jesus Christ have been in common use in sacred theology since the days of the great Jesuit theologian and controversialist, Gregory of Valentia (d. 1603). And, according to Gregory of Valentia, the broadest type of definition of the Church, the one which applies to this society as it lives in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on earth, is the formula describing it as "the multitude of those who have been gathered together by the grace of God's calling into the true worship of God and into the true and God-given knowledge of God, whether that knowledge be obscure, as it is in the case of the knowledge of the faith, or clear and manifest, as it is in the case of the blessed." Fenton

Stubborn · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2014, 11:26:51 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Stubborn
After reading your posts in this thread, you obviously misnamed the title of this thread.
You should have named it:

"Which Desires are Necessary Unto Salvation?

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Does the desire for Holy Communion merit one who has not yet desired Baptism? Penance?

Again:

What does that have to do with anything??? The point is that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire with the correct circuмstances applying in each case.

The point is that YOU SAY that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire, but the Church says THE SACRAMENTS ARE NECESSARY.

That is the point.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2014, 12:03:32 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Stubborn
After reading your posts in this thread, you obviously misnamed the title of this thread.
You should have named it:

"Which Desires are Necessary Unto Salvation?

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Does the desire for Holy Communion merit one who has not yet desired Baptism? Penance?

Again:

What does that have to do with anything??? The point is that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire with the correct circuмstances applying in each case.

The point is that YOU SAY that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire, but the Church says THE SACRAMENTS ARE NECESSARY.

That is the point.

Earth to Stubborn.

Am I saying (the below) or is the Church???

The Church says...

All three sacraments necessary to salvation: Without them or without the desire thereof.

Baptism: Without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof.

Penance: Either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament.

Holy Communion: those to wit, who eating in desire.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2014, 12:07:27 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Stubborn
After reading your posts in this thread, you obviously misnamed the title of this thread.
You should have named it:

"Which Desires are Necessary Unto Salvation?

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Does the desire for Holy Communion merit one who has not yet desired Baptism? Penance?

Again:

What does that have to do with anything??? The point is that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire with the correct circuмstances applying in each case.

The point is that YOU SAY that it is possible to receive all three of the Sacraments "necessary to salvation" in desire, but the Church says THE SACRAMENTS ARE NECESSARY.

That is the point.

Earth to Stubborn. Am I saying (the below) or is the Church???

The Church says...

He will not respond directly to your question if it gives credence to something he does not hold. It is quite frustrating to pin him down on one topic or to have him grant an undeniable point if it does not serve his purpose.

All three sacraments necessary to salvation: Without them or without the desire thereof.

Baptism: Without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof.

Penance: Either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament.

Holy Communion: those to wit, who eating in desire.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2014, 12:32:21 PM »

Who was the very first person to use the words "Baptism of Desire"?

That is a question that demands an answer.

The Council of Trent adds the description of "of the desire thereof" and some people are saying that this means there's a Baptism of Desire in addition to the Baptism of Water. When and who started bandying about this term?

The sentence "or the desire thereof" would mean that a Catholic who has access to the sacraments or is in a location separated from the sacraments must have a desire for the sacraments. A Catholic should, in his heart, have a desire for the sacraments.

How does a non-Catholic on some unvisited Pacific Island out there in the Pacific Ocean desire the sacraments? Especially in the 1600's and not in todays highly connected world with TV, radio and the internet?

If the Council of Trent fathers intended to delineate a "Baptism of Desire" which would be separated from, but equal to, the other sacraments, well, they would have dedicated a complete docuмent for such a momentous event.

So, when, where and by who did the term "Baptism of Desire" become such common parlance in the Catholic Church?

Think of the Devil smoltering in Hell with the stench of sulfur everywhere. He's moaning to himself, "I don't care if some lost soul renounces Christ out of allegiance to me or if he remounces Christ for lust, or whether it's for great wealth or through deceptive lingo or just out of laziness, all I care is that the soul renounces Christ and I collect him as mine."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2014, 12:35:46 PM »

Quote

Who was the very first person to use the words "Baptism of Desire"?

That is a question that demands an answer.

The Council of Trent adds the description of "of the desire thereof" and some people are saying that this means there's a Baptism of Desire in addition to the Baptism of Water. When and who started bandying about this term?

Saint Alphonsus de Ligouri was a Latin scholar. The same can be said of another great Doctor, Saint Robert Bellarmine. The Dimond brothers are not Latin scholars. Bellarmine and Alphonsus know what Trent said and what it taught. Do you agree?