Author Topic: Which Sacraments are Necessary Unto Salvation? (Read 6209 times)

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **on:** July 29, 2014, 07:50:45 PM »

The Council of Trent says that there are Sacraments (plural) necessary for salvation. Which Sacraments do you believe the Council were referring to?

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:55:56 PM »

Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:58:47 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2014, 08:22:09 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:27:57 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Cantarella · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:35:23 PM »

Three sacraments are necessary for salvation. Two of them are necessary to the individual; Baptism, simply and absolutely; Penance, in the case of mortal sin committed after Baptism; while the sacrament of orders is necessary to the Church.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:38:57 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

I could have said that better. I should have said, "suffices to obtain the Grace of Justification provided through no fault of one's own they cannot be received."

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:03:35 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Three sacraments are necessary for salvation. Two of them are necessary to the individual; Baptism, simply and absolutely; Penance, in the case of mortal sin committed after Baptism; while the sacrament of orders is necessary to the Church.

The Canon clearly says that the Sacraments that they are referring to, must be received either in actuality or desire. It clearly references them as a group. Not individually. The Council of Trent even highlights the fact that Baptism is one of the Sacraments they were referring to which can be received by "the desire thereof". (see session 6 below). They also highlight Penance (Chapter XIV). You have written your own canon (above) in opposition to Trent.

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

BAPTISM:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-Chapter IV

PENANCE:

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery, by the merit of Christ, of the grace lost: for this manner of Justification is of the fallen the reparation: which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost. For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit, and have not feared to violate the temple of God. Concerning which penitence it is written; Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works. And again; The sorrow that is according to [Page 42] God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation. And again; Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance. The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-CHAPTER XIV.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:16:20 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

BAPTISM:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-Chapter IV

This refers to Justification. Modernist BODers teach "salvation by implicit desire" or "salvation by justification alone" which are novel doctrines and are both wrong. If desire suffices to obtain justification, the necessity to receive the Sacrament still remains to obtain salvation.

Trent continues...

Quote

Session 7, Canons 2 & 5 of the Canons on Baptism from the Decree Concerning the Sacraments:

Can. 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional , that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.

Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema.

The reception of the Sacraments is required for Salvation. If justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments, he cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:27:31 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Three sacraments are necessary for salvation. Two of them are necessary to the individual; Baptism, simply and absolutely; Penance, in the case of mortal sin committed after Baptism; while the sacrament of orders is necessary to the Church.

This post highlights the group of three Sacraments (Baptism, Penance and Holy Communion). All can be received in desire (Highlighted in red). None is singled out to be different. This is why the canon refers to them as a group.

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

BAPTISM:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-Chapter IV

PENANCE:

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery, by the merit of Christ, of the grace lost: for this manner of Justification is of the fallen the reparation: which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost. For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit, and have not feared to violate the temple of God. Concerning which penitence it is written; Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works. And again; The sorrow that is according to [Page 42] God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation. And again; Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance. The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-CHAPTER XIV.

HOLY COMMUNION:

Now as to the use of this holy sacrament, our Fathers have rightly and wisely distinguished three ways of receiving it. For they have taught that some receive it sacramentally only, to wit sinners: others spiritually only, those to wit who eating in desire that heavenly bread which is set before them, are, by a lively faith which worketh by charity, made sensible of the fruit and usefulness thereof: whereas the third (class) receive it both sacramentally and spiritually, and these are they who so prove and prepare themselves beforehand, as to approach to this divine table clothed with the wedding garment. The Council of Trent-The Thirteenth Session-CHAPTER VIII.

Cantarella · « **Reply #10 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:32:06 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

If justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments, he cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments.

Notice the highlighted part. The Catholic Faith is the foundation of all Justification. This runs quite opposite to what the BOD-ers believe and promote. A Jєω, Hindu, Moslem, etc cannot be possibly justified since he does not hold the Catholic Faith so under any circuмstance the Baptism of Desire could apply to them, unless they were catechumens.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:59:09 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

BAPTISM:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.The Council of Trent-The Sixth Session-Chapter IV

This refers to Justification. Modernist BODers teach "salvation by implicit desire" or "salvation by justification alone" which are novel doctrines and are both wrong. If desire suffices to obtain justification, the necessity to receive the Sacrament still remains to obtain salvation.

Trent continues...

Quote

Session 7, Canons 2 & 5 of the Canons on Baptism from the Decree Concerning the Sacraments:

Can. 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional , that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.

Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema.

The reception of the Sacraments is required for Salvation. If justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments, he cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments.

As for Canon 5, no one said baptism is optional! Now if it said "water" baptism you would have a point. But the Council cannot contradict itself, therefore it didn't qualify the word Baptism with "water" in that canon. Baptism is not optional; it must be received in actuality or desire.

As for Canon 2. A metaphor is a word or phrase used to describe or represent something else that is tangible (a person, place, thing or action). For example referring to God as "A Mighty Fortress" would be to use a metaphor. Or he's "fishing" for something (fishing meaning looking). I do not believe that water is being used to describe something else or an action, and neither does the Church. Water means water and not anything else. It must be received in actuality or desire. Therefore Canon 2 does not apply to your argument.

As for your other argument, I believe you are implying that the Grace of Justification does not merit salvation. This is proven false, not only from the context of Canon IV-Session 7, but from another Canon in the Council which says clearly that those who merit the Grace of Justification, merit Eternal Life...

If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. The Council of Trent-Session VI-CANON XXXII

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2014, 11:49:32 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Cantarella
If justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments, he cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments.

Notice the highlighted part. The Catholic Faith is the foundation of all Justification. This runs quite opposite to what the BOD-ers believe and promote. A Jєω, Hindu, Moslem, etc cannot be possibly justified since he does not hold the Catholic Faith so under any circuмstance the Baptism of Desire could apply to them, unless they were catechumens.

I am referring mainly to those who renounce their former religion, explicitly desire water baptism in the Roman Catholic Church (with perfect contrition for sins) and who through no fault of their own do not receive water baptism before death, as being "de fide" Baptism of Desire. This is usually rejected by Feenyites, and is a direct contradiction of the Council of Trent.

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2014, 04:48:32 AM »

After reading your posts in this thread, you obviously misnamed the title of this thread.
You should have named it:

"Which Desires are Necessary Unto Salvation?

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Matto
Well we all know the council didn't mean that because if it really meant that then it means BOD is a lie.

That doesn't answer the question.

Baptism, Holy Communion, and (for those who had fallen after Baptism) Confession.

Thank you for answering the question Ladislaus.

Now, taking one question at a time, would you then agree that the desire of these sacraments (Baptism, Holy Communion and Penance), if they cannot be received (saving infant water baptism) suffices to obtain the grace of justification?

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.The Council of Trent-The Seventh Session-Canon IV

Does the desire for Holy Communion merit one who has not yet desired Baptism? Penance?

Again:

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2014, 05:30:11 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: Cantarella
If justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments, he cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the Sacraments.

Notice the highlighted part. The Catholic Faith is the foundation of all Justification. This runs quite opposite to what the BOD-ers believe and promote. A Jєω, Hindu, Moslem, etc cannot be possibly justified since he does not hold the Catholic Faith so under any circuмstance the Baptism of Desire could apply to them, unless they were catechumens.

I am referring mainly to those who renounce their former religion, explicitly desire water baptism in the Roman Catholic Church (with perfect contrition for sins) and who through no fault of their own do not receive water baptism before death, as being "de fide" Baptism of Desire. This is usually rejected by Feenyites, and is a direct contradiction of the Council of Trent.

Ad Jesum per Mariam, can you please explain in your own words the reason why you and all other NSAAers cannot defend the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation?