Author Topic: Which Sacraments are Necessary Unto Salvation? (Read 6203 times)

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #75 on:** July 31, 2014, 06:17:02 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

It is a relief that Ad Jesum per Mariam thinks that BOD could only apply to he who "believes explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, submits himself to Church tradition and has perfect contrition for his sins".

Those are good news!

He is the second person that limits BOD to those who at least have the basics of the Faith. The only disagreement then is that Ad Jesum per Mariam states that BOD is de fide when it is not. BOD is not an infallible teaching.

Denying two explicit Canons of Trent can certainly lead to the belief that Baptism of Desire is not de fide. Not to mention all the popes, doctors and catechisms that taught baptism of desire over the centuries which when taken together clearly constitutes Church teaching. Teaching that no Catholic is free to reject or relegate to a doubtful opinion. The fact that you do this is clearly not good news.

Cantarella · « **Reply #76 on:** July 31, 2014, 06:19:09 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Therefore your quote by Pope Pius XII does not detract in the slightest from what I said.

The quote was not intended to detract your statement in any way. On the contrary, we both agree that saints and theologians in isolation are not infallible. Not saint, bishop, or theologian is the binding teaching authority of the Church. The disagreement resides in that you say that BOD is infallible dogma because of an apparent "consensus" in the Church; when it is not.

No Pope, Council, or theologian says that Baptism of Desire is a sacrament. Likewise no Pope, Council, or theologian says that Baptism of Desire incorporates one into the Catholic Church. BOD does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.

Quote from: Trent

Session 7, Canon 4 of the Sacraments in General from the Decree Concerning the Sacraments (March 3, 1547):

If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

Notice that BOTH Faith and Desire are necessary for justification, not only Desire and not only Faith. It is very clear in Trent that both are necessary. It is not a "OR" proposition but an "AND". As a matter of fact, in claiming that Trent teaches ONE OR THE OTHER (Faith OR Desire), you turn Trent's statement into a heretic statement that Trent itself anathematizes because then you are claiming that water alone without the will or desire is sufficient to justify, which was condemned as heresy in the canons.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #77 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:02:08 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Therefore your quote by Pope Pius XII does not detract in the slightest from what I said.

The quote was not intended to detract your statement in any way. On the contrary, we both agree that saints and theologians in isolation are not infallible. Not saint, bishop, or theologian is the binding teaching authority of the Church. The disagreement resides in that you say that BOD is infallible dogma because of an apparent "consensus" in the Church; when it is not.

No Pope, Council, or theologian says that Baptism of Desire is a sacrament. Likewise no Pope, Council, or theologian says that Baptism of Desire incorporates one into the Catholic Church. BOD does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.

You are not reading my posts carefully Canterella. I never said BOD was infallible due to an apparent consensus in the Church. I said due to the dogma of Trent it was de fide. You fail to read closely and/or make distinctions Canterella. This is because you are more intent on winning then learning.

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Trent

Session 7, Canon 4 of the Sacraments in General from the Decree Concerning the Sacraments (March 3, 1547):

If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

Notice that BOTH Faith and Desire are necessary for justification, not only Desire and not only Faith. It is very clear in Trent that both are necessary. It is not a "OR" proposition but an "AND". As a matter of fact, in claiming that Trent teaches ONE OR THE OTHER (Faith OR Desire), you turn Trent's statement into a heretic statement that Trent itself anathematizes because then you are claiming that water alone without the will or desire is sufficient to justify, which was condemned as heresy in the canons.

Your digging deep into your bag now Canterella. This sounds like something from the Dimond bros. Also, you are putting words in my mouth again. I never said "faith" or "desire", I said "in fact" or "desire" in regards to the Sacraments necessary for salvation. Those who desire to be Roman Catholic and believe in the Trinity and Incarnation, and have a desire to submit to Tradition have the faith. If they have contrition for their sins they merit the grace of justification and are members of the Church (in desire). If they fail to receive water baptism (through no fault of their own) and they depart in that grace, they receive their baptism and merit eternal life.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #78 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:59:17 PM »

As I've pointed out before, holding an opinion is not the same as teaching it and proposing it for belief. It has to be proposed as something "to be held by all the faithful". Just because an opinion is widely held doesn't make it de fide.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #79 on:** July 31, 2014, 08:00:30 PM »

AJPM, I invite you once again to go after the Pelagian Cushingites and their heretical ecclesiology.

bowler · « **Reply #80 on:** July 31, 2014, 08:46:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

AJPM, I invite you once again to go after the Pelagian Cushingites and their heretical ecclesiology.

He never will because they are not his enemy. No one, not a one, can smoke the BOD and not end up believing in salvation for those who have no explicit desire to be Catholics, nor belief in Christ. When has anyone seen a thread by a BODer condemning salvation without belief in Christ? It "ain't" going to happen. This guy is a liar just like all BOders. They talk St. Thomas but they believe Garrigou-LaGrange. Is that not a lie?

Cantarella · « **Reply #81 on:** August 02, 2014, 09:50:26 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

You are not reading my posts carefully Canterella. I never said BOD was infallible due to an apparent consensus in the Church. I said due to the dogma of Trent it was de fide. You fail to read closely and/or make distinctions Canterella. This is because you are more intent on winning then learning.

The infallible Canons of Trent did not teach Baptism of Desire and actually anathematizes anyone who would "make a metaphor" of Christ's words in John 3:5, "Unless a man be born again..." That means we must take that phrase literally.

Also, you fail to make the important distinction between Justification and Salvation. To put it simply, a person who is in the state of justification but has not received the other effects, is like one of the just of the Old Testament: Their sins were forgiven them; but they could not ascend to Heaven precisely because they were sons of Adam and not God's. They had to be united to Christ, because "no one ascends to the Father except through me" which was accomplished for them by Christ when He "descended into hell," as stated in the Creed. In the New Law, this union with Christ, this becoming "the children of God" can ONLY happen through Baptism.