Author Topic: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.  (Read 283 times)

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Offline XavierSem

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What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« on: February 22, 2021, 09:25:08 AM »
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  • Some people are confused, probably by the Dimonds, on the Baptism of Blood. Baptism of Blood is not a Sacrament with form and matter, as some have misunderstood from flowery or metaphorical texts in perhaps one Father (St. Cyprian?). Baptism of Blood produces the plenary sacramental effect of Baptism without being itself an external Sacrament in form and matter, and without imprinting the Baptismal Character. Below, I post some of the texts of the Church Fathers on BOB, and welcome further ones, for study:

    As can be seen, the Church Fathers taught Our Lord revealed Baptism of Blood in at least Three Places.

    (1) First, where He expressly promised salvation to those who lay down their life for Him or for His Teaching (as also the Baltimore Catechism says the Church Teaches BOB because of this passage), "He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it." (Mat 10:39).

    (2) Second, where He said He had another Baptism to be baptized with, referring to His bitter Passion and Cruel Martyrdom, which itself also proves Martyrdom is a kind of Baptism. Indeed, in holy Baptism, we are buried and die with Christ, and it has its efficacy from His death. So Martyrdom is Baptism of Blood. "And Jesus said to them: You know not what you ask. Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of: or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized?" (Mark 10:38).

    (3) Third, in pouring out Blood and Water from His Sacred Heart, the Lord Jesus Christ (as He also explained to St. Catherine) showed the Baptism of Blood (and also the triune or threefold Baptism, which St. John refers to as Baptism of the Spirit in his epistle), which always inseparably with it obtains the full effect of Baptism of Water in remitting sins.

    Jn 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immєdιαtely there came out blood and water."

    1 Jn 5:5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

    While Martyrdom is the Greatest Act of Love, "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (Jn 15:13), the most a man can do for God, Baptism is any Act of Love of God or Contrition.

    So the Doctrine of the Baptism of Desire, which is a legitimate doctrinal development from Baptism of Blood, is already implicitly revealed in it. But that's a subject for another thread. This thread is about BOB in the Fathers.

    Now, for the texts. From: http://www.baptismofdesire.com/ I post three to begin with, from Saints Basil, Cyril and Hippolytus.

    ·     St. Hippolytus of Rome (3rd century): Canons of Hypolytus, Can. XIX: Concerning Catechumens: "Catechumens, who by the unbelievers are αrrєѕтed and killed by martyrdom, before they received baptism, are to be buried with the other martyrs, for they are baptized in their own blood."

    ·     St. Basil, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century): Treatise De Spiritu Sancto, Chapter XV: "And ere now there have been some who in their championship of true religion have undergone the death for Christ's sake, not in mere similitude, but in actual fact, and so have needed none of the outward signs of water for their salvation, because they were baptized in their own blood. Thus I write not to disparage the baptism by water, but to overthrow the arguments of those who exalt themselves against the Spirit; who confound things that are distinct from one another, and compare those which admit of no comparison."

    ·     St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church (4th Century): First Catechetical Lecture Of Our Holy Father Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, To Those Who Are to Be Enlightened, Delivered Extempore at Jerusalem, As an Introductory Lecture To Those Who Had Come Forward for Baptism, Lecture III on Baptism: "If any man receive not Baptism, he hath not salvation; except only Martyrs, who even without the water receive the kingdom. For when the Saviour, in redeeming the world by His Cross, was pierced in the side, He shed forth blood and water; that men, living in times of peace, might be baptized in water, and, in times of persecution, in their own blood. For martyrdom also the Saviour is wont to call a baptism, saying, Can ye drink rite cup which I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

    These three passages clearly explain Baptism of Blood, and show that it is not about Water being miraculously supplied or Blood being the form.

    They show, on the basis of the three passages in Sacred Scripture mentioned earlier, that the Baptism of Blood can save even without Baptism of Water.

    Next, when some of the Fathers say Martyrs alone are to be considered as certainly having obtained salvation, especially in the external forum, this was because, as St. Robert would later explain, the doctrine of Baptism of Desire was not considered absolutely certain yet. And also because, the internal disposition of perfect contrition required had not yet been perfectly formulated and theologically explained in those times, as it was in later times by the Church, by Her Doctors, Catechisms, Theologians etc. 
    Make this Life Offering to the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary today! 
    (1) All your family members will be saved (2) Your loved ones in Purgatory will be released, and (3) you yourself will not need Purgatory if you make it.
    https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #1 on: February 22, 2021, 09:36:46 AM »
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  • What's your point, Xavier?  There's no consensus on BOB.  It's not a doctrine.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #2 on: February 22, 2021, 09:43:08 AM »
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  • Errors of the Jansenists, #30:  "When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in (St) Augustine, he can absolutely hold it and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope."  CONDEMNED by Pope Alexander VIII.
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    Fr William Jurgens:
    We must stress that a particular patristic text (i.e. a particular statement from a Church Father) is in no instance to be regarded as a 'proof' of a particular doctrine.  Dogmas are not 'proved' by patristic statements, but by the infallible teaching instruments of the Church.
    .
    The value of the Fathers and writers is this:  that in the aggregate (that is, in totality, or by consensus), they provide a witness to the content of Tradition, that Tradition which is itself a vehicle of revelation.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #3 on: February 22, 2021, 01:18:54 PM »
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  • Now for something COMPLETELY different.......Let's quote a little of what Our Lord has to say in the matter....


    "But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting".

    "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

    "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".

    "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

    "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
    For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
    Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone?
    Or if he shall ask a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
    If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?"
     




    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline donkath

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #4 on: February 22, 2021, 04:30:54 PM »
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  • Xavier - You are giving your own interpretation of all these selected quotes from Scripture.  Each one on its own should only be understood in the light of Catholic teaching.
    I get the impression you keep putting your individual interpretation on everything you write.   Be careful dear man.

    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #5 on: February 22, 2021, 04:39:04 PM »
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  • Some people are confused, probably by the Dimonds, on the Baptism of Blood. Baptism of Blood is not a Sacrament with form and matter

    .... and .....

    Xavier continues to lie, claiming once again that everyone is just being led around by the Dimond Brothers.  Here at least you throw in "probably" ... because of course pulled the accusation out of your own posterior and have no basis in fact for it.  I have never seen them make this argument.  They simply state that here's no Magisterial source backing the notion.  And of course they're right, since the 25 theologians on Father Cekada's list give it a lower theological note than even BoD.

    I believe that I was the first one anywhere to make the argument, that the Fathers who believed in BoB considered it to be a Sacrament, or, rather, THE Sacrament, of Baptism.  And I have already presented the evidence for it, grasshopper.  And when I have time I will present it again.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 04:41:15 PM »
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  •  :laugh1:

    And of course, the quotations you post from the Fathers actually back up my contention.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 04:43:06 PM »
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  • What's your point, Xavier?

    His point, like that of the vast majority of BoDers, especially the militant ones, is to undermine the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.  He's basically a follower of Pelagius.
    Vigano for Pope !!!


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #8 on: February 23, 2021, 09:11:12 AM »
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  • Pope St. Leo the Great contradicts the concept of 'baptism of blood' in his Letter 16 of October 21, 447.

    6. In a case of necessity any time is allowable for baptism.  Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons [Easter and Pentecost] of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the elect in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to associate other days with this observance.  Because, although there are other feasts also to which much reverence is due in God’s honor, nevertheless a rational and mystical exception must be observed by us for this principal and greatest sacrament: not, however, prohibiting the license to succor those who are in danger by administering Baptism to them at any time.  For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate feasts, let us not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to anyone in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.In necessitatis casu omni tempore baptizandum.  Unde quia manifestissime patet baptizandis in ecclesia electis haec duo tempora, de quibus locuti sumus, esse legitima, dilectionem vestram monemus ut nullos alios dies huic observantiae misceatis.  Quia [Ed. Cap. VI] etsi sunt alia quoque festa, quibus multa in honorem Dei reverentia debeatur, principalis tamen et maximi sacramenti custodienda nobis est, mystica et rationalis exceptio; non interdicta licentia, qua in baptismo tribuendo quolibet tempore periclitantibus subvenitur.  Ita enim ad has duas festivitates connexas sibimet atque cognatas, incolumium et in pacis securitate degentium libera vota differimus, ut in mortis periculo, in obsidionis discrimine, in persecutionis angustiis, in timore naufragii, nullo tempore, hoc verae salutis singulare praesidium cuiquam denegemus.

    You can read an explanation of this passage here: https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/pope-st-leo-the-great-contradicts-baptism-of-blood-desire/

    Please read the comments because there you will find an explanation of why all the supposedly unbaptized martyrs in Heaven are in reality baptized.  This is based on the dogmatic teaching of Pope Benedict XII.

    Additional material on Pope St Leo the Great, Doctor of the Church: Pope Leo The Great On The Necessity Of Baptism For Salvation

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
    « Reply #9 on: February 23, 2021, 03:12:43 PM »
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  • Pope St. Leo the Great contradicts the concept of 'baptism of blood' in his Letter 16 of October 21, 447.

    6. In a case of necessity any time is allowable for baptism.  Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons [Easter and Pentecost] of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the elect in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to associate other days with this observance.  Because, although there are other feasts also to which much reverence is due in God’s honor, nevertheless a rational and mystical exception must be observed by us for this principal and greatest sacrament: not, however, prohibiting the license to succor those who are in danger by administering Baptism to them at any time.  For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate feasts, let us not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to anyone in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.In necessitatis casu omni tempore baptizandum.  Unde quia manifestissime patet baptizandis in ecclesia electis haec duo tempora, de quibus locuti sumus, esse legitima, dilectionem vestram monemus ut nullos alios dies huic observantiae misceatis.  Quia [Ed. Cap. VI] etsi sunt alia quoque festa, quibus multa in honorem Dei reverentia debeatur, principalis tamen et maximi sacramenti custodienda nobis est, mystica et rationalis exceptio; non interdicta licentia, qua in baptismo tribuendo quolibet tempore periclitantibus subvenitur.  Ita enim ad has duas festivitates connexas sibimet atque cognatas, incolumium et in pacis securitate degentium libera vota differimus, ut in mortis periculo, in obsidionis discrimine, in persecutionis angustiis, in timore naufragii, nullo tempore, hoc verae salutis singulare praesidium cuiquam denegemus.

    You can read an explanation of this passage here: https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/pope-st-leo-the-great-contradicts-baptism-of-blood-desire/

    Please read the comments because there you will find an explanation of why all the supposedly unbaptized martyrs in Heaven are in reality baptized.  This is based on the dogmatic teaching of Pope Benedict XII.

    Additional material on Pope St Leo the Great, Doctor of the Church: Pope Leo The Great On The Necessity Of Baptism For Salvation

    At the very least Pope St. Leo the Great considered BoB to be doubtful, considering water Baptism to be the unique (singular) "safeguard" of true salvation.

    Indeed, the cases of the martyr catechumens proves nothing, since it was common practice to baptize in times of persecution, but those so baptized continued on as "catechumens" until their formation was complete.  In fact, I believe one source explicitly mentions that a catechumen had already been baptized.  So the famous case of St. Emerentiana doesn't prove a thing.

    Certainly, some of the Fathers believed in BoB, but they believed that it was in fact the Sacrament taking place there.  But here Pope St. Leo the Great clearly calls it into question.  He doesn't condemn speculation about the possibility as error, but he also clearly holds it to be unproven speculation.
    Vigano for Pope !!!


     

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