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Author Topic: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.  (Read 1570 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2021, 04:39:04 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 22, 2021, 09:25:08 AM
Some people are confused, probably by the Dimonds, on the Baptism of Blood. Baptism of Blood is not a Sacrament with form and matter

.... and .....

Xavier continues to lie, claiming once again that everyone is just being led around by the Dimond Brothers.  Here at least you throw in "probably" ... because of course pulled the accusation out of your own posterior and have no basis in fact for it.  I have never seen them make this argument.  They simply state that here's no Magisterial source backing the notion.  And of course they're right, since the 25 theologians on Father Cekada's list give it a lower theological note than even BoD.

I believe that I was the first one anywhere to make the argument, that the Fathers who believed in BoB considered it to be a Sacrament, or, rather, THE Sacrament, of Baptism.  And I have already presented the evidence for it, grasshopper.  And when I have time I will present it again.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 04:41:15 PM »
 :laugh1:

And of course, the quotations you post from the Fathers actually back up my contention.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 04:43:06 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2021, 09:36:46 AM
What's your point, Xavier?

His point, like that of the vast majority of BoDers, especially the militant ones, is to undermine the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.  He's basically a follower of Pelagius.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2021, 09:11:12 AM »
Pope St. Leo the Great contradicts the concept of 'baptism of blood' in his Letter 16 of October 21, 447.

6. In a case of necessity any time is allowable for baptism.  Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons [Easter and Pentecost] of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the elect in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to associate other days with this observance.  Because, although there are other feasts also to which much reverence is due in God’s honor, nevertheless a rational and mystical exception must be observed by us for this principal and greatest sacrament: not, however, prohibiting the license to succor those who are in danger by administering Baptism to them at any time.  For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate feasts, let us not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to anyone in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.In necessitatis casu omni tempore baptizandum.  Unde quia manifestissime patet baptizandis in ecclesia electis haec duo tempora, de quibus locuti sumus, esse legitima, dilectionem vestram monemus ut nullos alios dies huic observantiae misceatis.  Quia [Ed. Cap. VI] etsi sunt alia quoque festa, quibus multa in honorem Dei reverentia debeatur, principalis tamen et maximi sacramenti custodienda nobis est, mystica et rationalis exceptio; non interdicta licentia, qua in baptismo tribuendo quolibet tempore periclitantibus subvenitur.  Ita enim ad has duas festivitates connexas sibimet atque cognatas, incolumium et in pacis securitate degentium libera vota differimus, ut in mortis periculo, in obsidionis discrimine, in persecutionis angustiis, in timore naufragii, nullo tempore, hoc verae salutis singulare praesidium cuiquam denegemus.

You can read an explanation of this passage here: https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/pope-st-leo-the-great-contradicts-baptism-of-blood-desire/

Please read the comments because there you will find an explanation of why all the supposedly unbaptized martyrs in Heaven are in reality baptized.  This is based on the dogmatic teaching of Pope Benedict XII.

Additional material on Pope St Leo the Great, Doctor of the Church: Pope Leo The Great On The Necessity Of Baptism For Salvation
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What the Church Fathers really say on the Baptism of Blood.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2021, 03:12:43 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on February 23, 2021, 09:11:12 AM
Pope St. Leo the Great contradicts the concept of 'baptism of blood' in his Letter 16 of October 21, 447.

6. In a case of necessity any time is allowable for baptism.  Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons [Easter and Pentecost] of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the elect in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to associate other days with this observance.  Because, although there are other feasts also to which much reverence is due in God’s honor, nevertheless a rational and mystical exception must be observed by us for this principal and greatest sacrament: not, however, prohibiting the license to succor those who are in danger by administering Baptism to them at any time.  For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate feasts, let us not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to anyone in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.In necessitatis casu omni tempore baptizandum.  Unde quia manifestissime patet baptizandis in ecclesia electis haec duo tempora, de quibus locuti sumus, esse legitima, dilectionem vestram monemus ut nullos alios dies huic observantiae misceatis.  Quia [Ed. Cap. VI] etsi sunt alia quoque festa, quibus multa in honorem Dei reverentia debeatur, principalis tamen et maximi sacramenti custodienda nobis est, mystica et rationalis exceptio; non interdicta licentia, qua in baptismo tribuendo quolibet tempore periclitantibus subvenitur.  Ita enim ad has duas festivitates connexas sibimet atque cognatas, incolumium et in pacis securitate degentium libera vota differimus, ut in mortis periculo, in obsidionis discrimine, in persecutionis angustiis, in timore naufragii, nullo tempore, hoc verae salutis singulare praesidium cuiquam denegemus.

You can read an explanation of this passage here: https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/pope-st-leo-the-great-contradicts-baptism-of-blood-desire/

Please read the comments because there you will find an explanation of why all the supposedly unbaptized martyrs in Heaven are in reality baptized.  This is based on the dogmatic teaching of Pope Benedict XII.

Additional material on Pope St Leo the Great, Doctor of the Church: Pope Leo The Great On The Necessity Of Baptism For Salvation

At the very least Pope St. Leo the Great considered BoB to be doubtful, considering water Baptism to be the unique (singular) "safeguard" of true salvation.

Indeed, the cases of the martyr catechumens proves nothing, since it was common practice to baptize in times of persecution, but those so baptized continued on as "catechumens" until their formation was complete.  In fact, I believe one source explicitly mentions that a catechumen had already been baptized.  So the famous case of St. Emerentiana doesn't prove a thing.

Certainly, some of the Fathers believed in BoB, but they believed that it was in fact the Sacrament taking place there.  But here Pope St. Leo the Great clearly calls it into question.  He doesn't condemn speculation about the possibility as error, but he also clearly holds it to be unproven speculation.
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