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Poll

What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?

Heretics
5 (12.5%)
Propagators or Error but not heretics
7 (17.5%)
Rash
3 (7.5%)
Other (explain in comments)
25 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Voting closed: March 02, 2024, 02:45:27 PM

Author Topic: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?  (Read 62564 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2024, 12:22:17 PM »
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  • Amen, I can verify the "unbathed Frenchies."  What is it with France that they do not believe in general hygiene?  I always dreaded the Sunday soccer matches because I knew that Vespers was going to be a "rough," knowing that the Frenchmen had no problem with body odor.   

    The condemnation of Fr. Feeney was never about some subtle theological distinction, whether unbaptized catechumens make it to heaven, etc.   It was about the doctrine that one must become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.  This is basic Catholic theology, and it is because of this theology that all twelve of the Apostles were put to death.  "You are in the world, but you are not of the world.  The world will hate you."  
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #136 on: February 16, 2024, 12:35:07 PM »
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  • The condemnation of Fr. Feeney was never about some subtle theological distinction, whether unbaptized catechumens make it to heaven, etc.  It was about the doctrine that one must become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.  This is basic Catholic theology, and it is because of this theology that all twelve of the Apostles were put to death.  "You are in the world, but you are not of the world.  The world will hate you." 
    This! ^^^ 🎯
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #137 on: February 16, 2024, 01:12:28 PM »
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  • Such as?
    Seems like a good time to re-post evidence against the criminal who started the whole smear campaign against the dogma and Fr. Feeney - and for his efforts was later elevated to Cardinal....


    Link
    Archbishop of Boston Cushing, was made a Cardinal of the Catholic Church by Pope John XXXIII in 1958.
    He was also one of the cardinal electors in the 1963 papal conclave, which selected Pope Paul VI.
    He was on good terms with practically the entire Boston elite.
    Cushing built useful(?) relationships with Jєωs, Protestants, and institutions outside the usual Catholic community.

    At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jєωs of deicide charge.

    He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church.[16] In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades.
    He was a member of the NAACP.
    Oh, and his sister was married to a Jєω

    Link May 1945 - Cushing attends  interfaith dinner

    Link Nov. 1948 -  Archbishop Cushing, dwelling on the need for brotherhood, pledged the friendship of American Catholics with Jєωs.

    Link April 1949 - Archbishop Cushing says teaching the dogma of No salvation outside the Church is “teaching ideas leading to bigotry.” Group is censured for publishing quarterly magazine contending that persons dying outside the Church could not be saved.

    Link April 1949 - New catechism is changed, now upholds Boston College and Archbishop Cushing claim that there is salvation outside the Church.

    Link Oct. 1949 - Fr. Feeney silenced by Archbishop Cushing for preaching there is no salvation outside the Church.

    Link April 1949 - Cushing states: “This absolute requirement of an explicit desire to join the Catholic Church, as a condition of salvation is clearly wrong. All theologians hold that faith and charity or perfect contrition involving an implicit desire to join the Church suffice for salvation.” (Sounds like LoT, Ambrose, &etc.)

    Link Feb. 1953 - Cushing excommunicated “heresy priest” for disobedience, not for heresy.

    Link
    Nov. 1970  - Cardinal Cushing receives praise from the Jєωs

    Jєωιѕн leaders expressed sorrow today over the death yesterday at the age of 75 of Richard Cardinal Cushing. Archbishop of Boston since 1944 and a friend of Israel and the Jєωs. Philip E. Hoffman, president of the American Jєωιѕн Committee, said “Jєωιѕн people throughout the world will always remember with satisfaction Cardinal Cushing’s efforts to achieve an honest and meaningful statement on the Roman Catholic Church and the Jєωs five years ago in Rome at the Second Vatican Council.” Cardinal Cushing he said, “was at the forefront in this tremendously important endeavor,” and “the positive results of Vatican Council II will be a lasting memorial to the Cardinal.” World Jєωry. Mr. Hoffman said, “has lost a friend and champion.” Seymour Graubard, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. said Jєωs the world over will always remember the dramatic plea Cardinal Cushing made on the floor of Vatican Council II five years ago in Rome. “His distinctive voice echoed through the chamber as he asked the Council to “cry out” against “any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers,”

    The UAHC official added that Cardinal Cushing “was a liberal in the truest sense of the word, practicing the principles of ecuмenism long before the term became fashionable.”

    Cardinal Cushing, whose efforts at ecuмenism extended to ѕуηαgσgυє oratory, received a rare tribute when he implored Vatican Council II to reject the doctrine of Jєωιѕн guilt for the death of Jesus. The bishops, who normally do not applaud speakers, did so for him.

    Link July 1977 - Fr. Feeney, silenced in 1949, excommunicated in 1953 for condemning the teachings of Boston College that persons outside the Church could attain salvation after death, was reinstated in 1972 without having to recant his position.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #138 on: February 16, 2024, 01:51:00 PM »
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  • Seems like a good time to re-post evidence against the criminal who started the whole smear campaign against the dogma and Fr. Feeney - and for his efforts was later elevated to Cardinal....


    Link
    Archbishop of Boston Cushing, was made a Cardinal of the Catholic Church by Pope John XXXIII in 1958.
    He was also one of the cardinal electors in the 1963 papal conclave, which selected Pope Paul VI.
    He was on good terms with practically the entire Boston elite.
    Cushing built useful(?) relationships with Jєωs, Protestants, and institutions outside the usual Catholic community.

    At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jєωs of deicide charge.

    He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church.[16] In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades.
    He was a member of the NAACP.
    Oh, and his sister was married to a Jєω

    Link May 1945 - Cushing attends  interfaith dinner

    Link Nov. 1948 -  Archbishop Cushing, dwelling on the need for brotherhood, pledged the friendship of American Catholics with Jєωs.

    Link April 1949 - Archbishop Cushing says teaching the dogma of No salvation outside the Church is “teaching ideas leading to bigotry.” Group is censured for publishing quarterly magazine contending that persons dying outside the Church could not be saved.

    Link April 1949 - New catechism is changed, now upholds Boston College and Archbishop Cushing claim that there is salvation outside the Church.

    Link Oct. 1949 - Fr. Feeney silenced by Archbishop Cushing for preaching there is no salvation outside the Church.

    Link April 1949 - Cushing states: “This absolute requirement of an explicit desire to join the Catholic Church, as a condition of salvation is clearly wrong. All theologians hold that faith and charity or perfect contrition involving an implicit desire to join the Church suffice for salvation.” (Sounds like LoT, Ambrose, &etc.)

    Link Feb. 1953 - Cushing excommunicated “heresy priest” for disobedience, not for heresy.

    Link
    Nov. 1970  - Cardinal Cushing receives praise from the Jєωs

    Jєωιѕн leaders expressed sorrow today over the death yesterday at the age of 75 of Richard Cardinal Cushing. Archbishop of Boston since 1944 and a friend of Israel and the Jєωs. Philip E. Hoffman, president of the American Jєωιѕн Committee, said “Jєωιѕн people throughout the world will always remember with satisfaction Cardinal Cushing’s efforts to achieve an honest and meaningful statement on the Roman Catholic Church and the Jєωs five years ago in Rome at the Second Vatican Council.” Cardinal Cushing he said, “was at the forefront in this tremendously important endeavor,” and “the positive results of Vatican Council II will be a lasting memorial to the Cardinal.” World Jєωry. Mr. Hoffman said, “has lost a friend and champion.” Seymour Graubard, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. said Jєωs the world over will always remember the dramatic plea Cardinal Cushing made on the floor of Vatican Council II five years ago in Rome. “His distinctive voice echoed through the chamber as he asked the Council to “cry out” against “any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers,”

    The UAHC official added that Cardinal Cushing “was a liberal in the truest sense of the word, practicing the principles of ecuмenism long before the term became fashionable.”

    Cardinal Cushing, whose efforts at ecuмenism extended to ѕуηαgσgυє oratory, received a rare tribute when he implored Vatican Council II to reject the doctrine of Jєωιѕн guilt for the death of Jesus. The bishops, who normally do not applaud speakers, did so for him.

    Link July 1977 - Fr. Feeney, silenced in 1949, excommunicated in 1953 for condemning the teachings of Boston College that persons outside the Church could attain salvation after death, was reinstated in 1972 without having to recant his position.
    I'm aware of all that and more, I know interfaith meetings were held under Pius XII, I wonder, however, whether he gave his explicit approval or whether it is possible he was unaware as with Fr. Feeney.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #139 on: February 16, 2024, 02:37:27 PM »
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  • I'm aware of all that and more, I know interfaith meetings were held under Pius XII, I wonder, however, whether he gave his explicit approval or whether it is possible he was unaware as with Fr. Feeney.
    I remember in one of his talks, Fr. O'Connor was saying the one who wields the most power is not the one in charge, it's the one who is second in command, because he's the one who gets all the info first hand, then filters as he sees fit before passing whatever info he wants to to his boss. In this case we're talking about the pope and whomever he depended on.

    So I don't think PPXII was completely unaware, but who really knows? I don't know who fed PPXII whatever information he got, but that's the guy, IMO, who gets the lion's share of the blame for what happened in those days.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #140 on: February 16, 2024, 03:19:13 PM »
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  • Amen, I can verify the "unbathed Frenchies."

    Yes, I've posted this story before.  After we entered STAS, we had to read/study the seminary rule.  There was a provision in there about bathing/showering once a week, saying that seminarians should bathe/shower once a week.  We nearly all found this to be a tremendous mortification.  One day, Bishop Williamson "got wind" of this and informed us during his spiritual conference that we had to understand that the rule was written by the French for French seminaries, and the provision meant that you had to bathe/shower AT LEAST once a week.  After the spiritual conference and dinner, the showers were running non-stop until just before Compline.  :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #141 on: February 16, 2024, 03:23:09 PM »
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  • The condemnation of Fr. Feeney was never about some subtle theological distinction, whether unbaptized catechumens make it to heaven, etc.  It was about the doctrine that one must become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.  This is basic Catholic theology, and it is because of this theology that all twelve of the Apostles were put to death.  "You are in the world, but you are not of the world.  The world will hate you." 

    Of course, but the enemies of EENS have made it about "Baptism of Desire" on purpose.  To an extent, I consider the question of BoD for Catechumens or catechumen-like individuals, to be an academic dispute and a question of speculative theology, since it hasn't been settled by the Church.  Problem comes from BoD being used used as the chief weapon for undermining EENS dogma.  And every time you try to set aside the BoD issue and focus on EENS, the anti-EENS crowd keep returning to BoD and hiding behind it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #142 on: February 16, 2024, 03:24:16 PM »
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  • I'm aware of all that and more, I know interfaith meetings were held under Pius XII, I wonder, however, whether he gave his explicit approval or whether it is possible he was unaware as with Fr. Feeney.

    I believe that there were some that he explicitly permitted ad experimentum.  Of course, once you do that, all the Modernists will interpret that as license to go hog wild with their Ecuмenical endeavors.

    Pius XII did lots of stuff like that, such as permitting discussion of evolution, where he should have just completely shut it down.  Once you open that can of worms, there's no closing it.  You give the Modernists an inch, and they'll take a mile.  He needed to hammer down with an iron fist on these developments, like St. Pius X did.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #143 on: February 16, 2024, 03:38:38 PM »
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  • Yes, I've posted this story before.  After we entered STAS, we had to read/study the seminary rule.  There was a provision in there about bathing/showering once a week, saying that seminarians should bathe/shower once a week.  We nearly all found this to be a tremendous mortification.  One day, Bishop Williamson "got wind" of this and informed us during his spiritual conference that we had to understand that the rule was written by the French for French seminaries, and the provision meant that you had to bathe/shower AT LEAST once a week.  After the spiritual conference and dinner, the showers were running non-stop until just before Compline.  :laugh1:
    Yup. I used to stand in the shower at 5:58 a.m. waiting for the 6:00 a.m. bell to turn on the shower.

    Remember those awful fans in the lavatory windows? If they were not running to ventilate the shower room, the restroom temperature would drop into the 40s during winter. 🥶
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #144 on: February 16, 2024, 03:42:07 PM »
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  • By not signing the pseudo holy office letter?
    .

    No, a real pope excommunicated Leonard Feeney and posted the excommunication notice in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis so there could be no question as to its authenticity.

    "What you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven."

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #145 on: February 16, 2024, 03:53:21 PM »
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  • .

    No, a real pope excommunicated Leonard Feeney and posted the excommunication notice in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis so there could be no question as to its authenticity.

    "What you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven."
    The excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney had as much legitimacy as the excommunications of Msgrs. Lefebvre and de Castro-Mayer.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #146 on: February 16, 2024, 04:00:26 PM »
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  • The excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney had as much legitimacy as the excommunications of Msgrs. Lefebvre and de Castro-Mayer.
    .

    No, Feeney was excommunicated by a true pope. Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. Castro Meyer were "excommunicated" by heretics and anti-popes.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #147 on: February 16, 2024, 04:03:33 PM »
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  • Since I don't much about Fr. Feeney, I am hoping someone can give me a quick answer.  Did Fr Feeney continue to say the Latin Mass up until his death?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #148 on: February 16, 2024, 04:11:50 PM »
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  • No, Feeney was excommunicated by a true pope. Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. Castro Meyer were "excommunicated" by heretics and anti-popes.
    Well, that was not the argument of Msgr. Lefebvre as given in press conferences, sermons, and writings in 1988. His Grace argued everything on the basis of canon 1323 4° & 7° from the new 1983 Codex Iuris Canonici.

    He also argued that everything that had done subsequently to the 1974 Apostolic Visitation to the Écône seminary was contingent to the non-canonical "trial" of 1975 that condemned him and ordered the SSPX disbanded. This was a failure of justice and canonical jurisprudence. This is the same argument made by Fr. Feeney in regards to his disobedience case. Exactly the same.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #149 on: February 16, 2024, 04:15:47 PM »
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  • Since I don't much about Fr. Feeney, I am hoping someone can give me a quick answer.  Did Fr Feeney continue to say the Latin Mass up until his death?
    Yes. And his supposed excommunication was lifted in 1972 without any recantation of his opinion on EENS or BOD/BOB since these had nothing to do with the supposed excommunication that was on zccount of disobedience. Further, his regularisation required only that he recite the creed. He chose to recite the Quicuмque Creed that repeats EENS. 😄
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila