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Poll

What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?

Heretics
5 (12.5%)
Propagators or Error but not heretics
7 (17.5%)
Rash
3 (7.5%)
Other (explain in comments)
25 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Voting closed: March 02, 2024, 02:45:27 PM

Author Topic: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?  (Read 62423 times)

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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2024, 08:39:49 AM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII addressed Testem Benevolentiae primarily to Gibbons, who then simply blew it off and claimed that they believed no such things ... which was demonstrably false.
    Whilst Americanism spread across the Atlantic, ripping through the Ralliement clergy of France who called themselves "abbés democrates". The whole French Church was cast into turmoil.

    And the whole time Gibbons denied his or any American clerics holding to or practicing the latitudinarian and activist errors that were, in fact, born from the bosom of American Paulist Rev. Isaac Hecker under the banner of the Stars and Stripes.

    Look at the language, doctrine, and art work from books, pamphlets, and photographs produced by American Catholicism in the period folliwing the War Between the States and leading up to the Cold War. What you will view is docuмentary Americanism.

    Further, the influence of Americanism under the leadership of Cardinal Gibbons and Archbishop John Ireland was dirdctly responsible for the schism of tens of thousands of European immigrant Catholics in these USA who found no loving Mother in thd American Church. Germans, Austrians, and Bohemians avoided the schism because of the work the missionary Raphaelsverein amongst their populations which found support from the German-born bishops of the Midwest. Elsewhere in these USA, however, the lasting "forced schism" of Poles can be witnessed in the continued existence of the Polish National Catholic Church, certain Old Roman Catholic communities (these are not the same as Old Catholics), and the Carpatho-Russian Greek Orthodox Catholic Church made up of former Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics. All this as fruits of thr Americanist program during Gibbons' archprelacy as the de facto primate of the US Church.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #91 on: February 14, 2024, 11:10:21 AM »
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  • Other: Fr. Feeney was a saintly priest and should be canonized for defending the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. 

    I never knew Fr. Feeney personally, but knew several people who knew and conversed with him well.  The late Mike Malone, a scholar in his own right and author of fifty+ books (please read the book The Only Begotten), was present, in the room, in 1972 when the excommunication of Fr. Feeney was lifted.  Of course Fr. Feeney was not forced to recant any error because every Catholic must know that there is No Salvation Outside the Church - Duh!  Mike Malone said to us at a Catholic Conference many years ago that Fr. Feeney is credited with the conversion of at least two hundred converts (at least ten of them Jews).  I know of no traditional Catholic who can claim this many Jews as converts since 1969 (Fr. Feeney died in '78).  We beg the reader to produce for us any convert since this time who can claim ten Jews to his convert resume.  Mike Malone in his talk on baptism names two of the Jews by name.  

    Another friend told me the story of how Brother Hugh would help Fr. Feeney raise his arm at the consecration.  Apparently Fr. Feeney would fast, almost to the point of being physically weak.  

    And we all know the story of how the young Bobby Kennedy stormed into the room and called out Fr. Feeney for his stance on No Salvation.  Of course Fr. Feeney could have taken the heretical, wimpy stand, and told Bobby, "No, no, Bobby, not so, your Protestant friends at Harvard will not be damned, do you not know that all good Christians go to heaven?"  

    And there is the story of how Fr. Feeney came to breakfast table and Fr. de Chardin, the heretic Jesuit, was sitting there visiting the Jesuits.  Fr. Feeney told him, "Fr. if you do not abandon your heresy, you will go to hell."  We all know how Fr. de Chardin ended.  

    More stories could be told by others, but by all accounts Fr. Feeney was a good apostle and had a great love for souls.  Here are the links for Mike Malone's talk on Baptism given many years ago.  He tells a couple of stories directly related to Fr. Feeney.   

      https://rumble.com/v3q0oga-mike-malone-the-only-begotten-why-the-blessed-virgin-needed-baptism-pt.-1.html
    https://rumble.com/v3q0qmm-mike-malone-the-only-begotten-why-the-blessed-virgin-needed-baptism-pt.-2.html



    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #92 on: February 14, 2024, 11:47:36 AM »
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  • "There is a growing repugnance to the popular doctrine on eternal punishment among the most intelligent of the catholic laity, and this same repugnance is the chief obstacle to the reception of the faith by a large class of non-Catholics.  True charity and zeal require us, therefore, to do our utmost to resolve the difficulties which trouble and endanger these souls. We do not believe it possible to smother up discussion, or to quell the intelligence of this thinking age by the weight of any human authority, however respectable.  Whatever theological opinions we may hold, we have no right to insist on anything except the dogma of faith, as necessary to Catholic communion and salvation; whether we are dealing with our spiritual brethren in the Church, or with the doubting and unsettled minds of those whom we seek to bring within her fold."
        Quote from "St. Augustine and Calvinism" by Orestes Brownson, 1863

    Obviously, even in Brownson's time (1800's) there were Catholics who were denying the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. "We have no right to insist on anything except 'the dogma of faith.'"  And we all know what the dogma of faith is.   
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #93 on: February 14, 2024, 08:42:08 PM »
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  • I voted other because I don't think BOD via "invincible ignorance" with an implicit desire for baptism is an infallible dogma. 

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #94 on: February 15, 2024, 05:07:20 AM »
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  • From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    Yet another source showing these characters make up their own theology and misread Trent. All commentators on Trent with good reading comprehension know it teaches Baptism of Desire. If they had any theologian since Trent who read it in their twisted and perverse way they would be quoting this writing non stop. They have nothing except their arrogant twisting of Trent.  

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]"The baptism of desire ([/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]baptismus flaminis[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]) is a perfect [/color]contrition[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of [/color]God[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] which contains, at least implicitly, a desire ([/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]votum[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]) of baptism. The Latin word [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]flamen[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is used because [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Flamen[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is a name for the [/color]Holy Ghost[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], Whose special office it is to move the heart to [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]God[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] and to conceive penitence for [/color]sin[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. The "baptism of the [/color]Holy Ghost[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is [/color]proved[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] from the words of [/color]Christ[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. After He had declared the [/color]necessity[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of baptism ([/color]John 3[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]), He [/color]promised[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]justifying grace[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] for acts of charity or perfect [/color]contrition[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] ([/color]John 14[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]): "He that [/color]loveth[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] Me, shall be [/color]loved[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of my Father: and I will [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] me, he will keep my word, and my Father will [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that [/color]justifying grace[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or [/color]contrition[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of [/color]sins[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. This [/color]doctrine[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is set forth clearly by the [/color]Council of Trent[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that [/color]contrition[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles [/color]man[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] to [/color]God[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], before the [/color]Sacrament of Penance[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the [/color]necessity[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of baptism, it says that [/color]men[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of [/color]regeneration[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] or its desire" ([/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]voto[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]). The same [/color]doctrine[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] is taught by [/color]Pope Innocent III[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by [/color]Popes[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Pius V[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] and [/color]Gregory XII[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of [/color]Baius[/b][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]."[/color]

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#x[/color]


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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #95 on: February 15, 2024, 05:50:57 AM »
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  • From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Not a good source and is biased. Most BoDers cannot admit the fact the BoD causes St Alphonsus to contradict Trent on initial justification. This goes to show that BoD is a corrupt tree.

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #96 on: February 15, 2024, 05:51:58 AM »
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  • From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    Yet another source showing these characters make up their own theology and misread Trent. All commentators on Trent with good reading comprehension know it teaches Baptism of Desire. If they had any theologian since Trent who read it in their twisted and perverse way they would be quoting this writing non stop. They have nothing except their arrogant twisting of Trent. 
    The whole doctrine of "Baptism of Desire" is defined as "attaining salvation without the sacrament of baptism," and that's not in Trent.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #97 on: February 15, 2024, 07:11:03 AM »
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  • Other: Fr. Feeney was a saintly priest and should be canonized for defending the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

    Agreed.

    He was the ONLY member of the clergy who saw Vatican II coming.  He saw that the track was out ahead and was watching the impending trainwreck in slow motion.  While others watched the US bishops building schools, churches, and parishes everywhere, noticed the full seminaries and religious orders, only Father Feeney realized that the structures were termite-infested, rotting, and ready to collapse.  Vatican II did NOT simply come out of nowhere, where hundreds of millions of orthodox Catholics suddenly became heretics, on one sunny morning in 1962.

    Even to this day, 99% of Trads and Trad clergy don't understand the nature of the theological / doctrinal crisis, focusing on symptoms rather than the cause of this disease.

    Father's belief in EENS inspired him with the apostolic zeal to convert hundreds (including, as you point out, a number of Jews).

    Father was in no way a "heretic" as many clueless Trads believe.  Even with their interpretation of "or the desire thereof", what does Trent teach?  Justification by votum.  Father Feeney believed in justification by votum.  Charges of heresy are absurd.  To accuse Father of heresy, you have to prove that it's heretical to distinguish between justification and salvation ... except that Trent already did, teaching that an additional grace of final perseverance is required, and post-Tridentine theologians like Melchior Cano also held the distinction, holding that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved.

    So, Father was disobedient to his superiors ... said with a lot of temerity (and hypocrisy) by Trads.  If you're R&R, "faith is greater than obedience," no? ... except in the case of Father Feeney.  If you're an SV, Cushing and Father Feeney's Jesuit superiors were clearly manifest heretics and therefore ipso facto deposed, and not actually his superiors.

    No one has refuted any of the above.  Simply read this below if you're not convinced that Cushing and Father's Jesuit superiors were heretics.  You'll never see a more egregious or obvious case of manifest heresy.
    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/the-case-of-father-feeney/

    But many Trads bluster about smearing Father Feeney as if he were a greater heretic than Bergoglio or Montini or Wojtyla or Arius or Nestorius ... or Cushing.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #98 on: February 15, 2024, 07:23:46 AM »
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  • I recall a strong anti-Feeney sentiment amongst French priests of the SSPX back in the 1980s. Yet, were one to syllogise their attitude and argument, it would run thus:

    Major:  American Catholics are hopelessly infected with the Calvinistic values of the USA environment
    Minor: Leonard Feeney is an American Catholic
    Conclusion: Feeney's theology is Calvinistic
    Corollary: Calvinism is bad, therefore Feeney is the DEVIL!
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #99 on: February 15, 2024, 07:30:00 AM »
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  • I recall a strong anti-Feeney sentiment amongst French priests of the SSPX back in the 1980s. Yet, were one to syllogise their attitude and argument, it would run thus:

    Major:  American Catholics are hopelessly infected with the Calvinistic values of the USA environment
    Minor: Leonard Feeney is an American Catholic
    Conclusion: Feeney's theology is Calvinistic
    Corollary: Calvinism is bad, therefore Feeney is the DEVIL!

    Yes, the anti-American animus among the French Trad clergy played into it.  Of course, there was also the motivation that Archbishop Lefebvre himself had fallen victim to the error, asserting in his An Open Letter to Confused Catholics that those who die as non-Catholics can be saved, having transmogrified the dogma "No Salvation Outside the Church" into "No Salvation except by means of (the instrumental causality of) the Church."  Archbishop Lefebvre was not a theologian, and he fell for this because he was taught it by his otherwise-orthodox professors long before Vatican II, demonstrating how far and wide the infestation of this heresy had spread.  Even today, if you listen to various EWTN radio "personalities", many of them are quite solid on just about every other dogma and doctrine ... until they get to EENS and the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation, where they collapse into Modernism and heresy.  Wojtyla was perceived as a great conservative, despite being the greatest purveyor of religious indifferentism ever to sit physically on the throne of Peter.

    Some of this was spearheaded by Fr. Laisney's Is Feeneyism Catholic? an atrocity of intellectual dishonesty, replete with quotations where strategic ellipses make quotes sound like the opposite of what they actually said ... and most people know Father Laisney now to be a closet Modernist, having attacked the Resistance and enthusiastically promoted Fr. Robinson's openly-Modernist screed about the Sacred Scriptures and science.  Laisney's intellectual dishonesty about EENS was on the level of quoting someone who said, "Our Lady did not have Original Sin" as having said "Our Lady did ... have Original Sin."

    Offline CatholicChris

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #100 on: February 15, 2024, 09:04:23 AM »
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  •  could be justified but not saved.

     


    Lad, just curious what this means? Would such a person be denied the Beatific Vision but not suffer the torments of hell?


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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #101 on: February 15, 2024, 09:53:40 AM »
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  • I voted other because I don't think BOD via "invincible ignorance" with an implicit desire for baptism is an infallible dogma.
    Quote the dogma.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #102 on: February 15, 2024, 11:33:53 AM »
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  • Lad, just curious what this means? Would such a person be denied the Beatific Vision but not suffer the torments of hell?

    Father Feeney answered with an "I don't know."  I speculate that there "torments of hell" are infinitely variable, to the point that some in Hell suffer very little, and there may be others who are in a state of happiness similar to Limbo for Infants (e.g. unbaptized martyrs if there are any).  There are other possibilities, such as that those who have justification but die without Baptism don't receive the gift of final perseverance and lose their justification at death, whereas for others God may send an angel to baptize them (as St. Thomas speculated about the invincibly ignorant), or perhaps even they would stay in a Limbo state and then later be baptized at the Final Resurrection.  Ultimate, with Father Feeney, we don't know but can only speculate.  But one cannot enter the Beatific Vision without the character of Baptism, which justification by votum (aka BoD) does not provide (as per its proponents).

    See, the Church has defined very little about the eternal statuses.  For many centuries (through the first millennium), there were only Heaven and Hell.  Then the notion of Limbo was introduced, and the Church permitted belief in it (condemning the proposition that it's a "Pelagian fable"), and most follow St. Thomas in believing in Limbo, while others still cling to the prior Augustinian opinion.  So even Limbo isn't dogmatically set in stone.

    But I think a large part of the animosity towards EENS dogma is predicated upon a monolithic view of Hell, and a strict dichotomy between eternal beatitude (beatific vision) and burning in a cauldron of fire in Hell.  I believe that there are varying degrees in between (as one of the EENS definitions says about Hell).

    People see a naturally virtuous and noble individual, who perhaps lived a pure life, was selfless, possibly even gave his life to save someone else, and so they find it repugnant that such an individual would be hurled into the caldron of fire right next to the likes of Judas or Joe Stalin (if he didn't convert on his deathbed).  But what if there may be different degrees of beatitude and of suffering depending on the state of an individual's sole, somewhere between the poles of infinite suffering and infinite beatitude?  Such an intermediate place is Limbo of the Infants, which most Catholic theologians came to believe in.  Why can't there be others in Limbo or Limbo-like states with varying degrees of natural happiness or natural suffering, depending on the state of their souls at death, and yet short of the Beatific Vision, which can only be had in the Kingdom and with the character conferred by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Is this hinted at by Our Lord when He taught that those who believe and are baptized will be saved that that those who do not believe will be condemned?  What about those who believe but are not baptized?  They fall into neither category, of saved or of condemned, based on the logic of Our Lord's teaching.

    I hold / speculate that there's an infinitely-variable degree of happiness vs. suffering in eternity even short of the Beatific Vision, but that Our Lord did not reveal these things to us, knowing that if human beings knew that not everyone's fate would necessarily entail burning intensely in the fires of Hell, with their hard hearts, they would never be motivated to become good and holy, since most people begin their road to virtue primarily due to the fear of Hell.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #103 on: February 15, 2024, 03:14:11 PM »
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  • Mike Malone, who gave a speech on Baptism years ago, and who knew Fr. Feeney personally, told the story how one Jew collapsed on the sidewalk, and Fr. Feeney told the cabbie to stop.  Fr. got out asked the guy if he wanted to be baptized, the guy said yes, and come to find out the guy was Jew.  Fr. Feeney converted multiple Jews.  It is almost as though God were saying, "I approve of Fr. Feeney, hence these 'miraculous baptism coincidences.' 

    And the Jesuits were liberal long before Vatican II.  Look at Fr. Teilhard de Chardin, S.J,  who was writing heretical nonsense in the 1920's.  Heck, in 1916, in his essay "The Cosmic Earth,"
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #104 on: February 15, 2024, 03:28:51 PM »
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  • i voted option 2