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Poll

What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?

Heretics
5 (12.5%)
Propagators or Error but not heretics
7 (17.5%)
Rash
3 (7.5%)
Other (explain in comments)
25 (62.5%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Voting closed: March 02, 2024, 02:45:27 PM

Author Topic: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?  (Read 62397 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2024, 04:20:06 PM »
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  • No, Feeney was excommunicated by a true pope. Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. Castro Meyer were "excommunicated" by heretics and anti-popes.

    Well, the material grounds for the excommunication were faulty.  Cushing and Father Feeney's Jesuit superiors were manifest heretics and had therefore ipso facto vacated their offices, and so there wasn't anyone for Father Feeney to be disobedient to.

    Even if you believe it was legit (it was not, as his only crime was teaching EENS dogma while those around him denied it), he wasn't excommunicated for his doctrine.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #151 on: February 16, 2024, 04:38:44 PM »
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  • Since I don't much about Fr. Feeney, I am hoping someone can give me a quick answer.  Did Fr Feeney continue to say the Latin Mass up until his death?
    Yes, we traveled to MA in 1973 for the TLM celebrated by him. I'm 99% sure he never said the NOM.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #152 on: February 16, 2024, 04:57:47 PM »
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  • Yes, we traveled to MA in 1973 for the TLM celebrated by him. I'm 99% sure he never said the NOM.

    I would have loved to meet Father Feeney and assist at one of his Masses, as well as that of Archbishop Thuc (a friend of mine, now Bishop Neal Webster, served Mass for him) ... but our paths never crossed.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #153 on: February 16, 2024, 08:06:22 PM »
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  • Well, the material grounds for the excommunication were faulty.  Cushing and Father Feeney's Jesuit superiors were manifest heretics and had therefore ipso facto vacated their offices, and so there wasn't anyone for Father Feeney to be disobedient to.
    .

    You are presuming Feeney is correct. But he is not correct. The idea of baptism of desire by implicit faith was taught by numerous theologians and none of them had been condemned. So Feeney does not have the authority to condemn a doctrine just because he disagrees with it.

    Those days were very different from today inasmuch as there was a true pope who condemned error, so it's easy for people now to think theologians were all just writing heresy back then, but that is an anachronistic idea. In the time of Leonard Feeney, theologians were not permitted to write heresy, so Feeney's accusations of heresy were incorrect. And since they were incorrect, he still had a superior whom he disobeyed.

    Let's leave the theology aside for a second and just look at this situation from a common sense point of view for a second. Does it really make sense that all these theologians were teaching heresy during the reign of an unquestionably true pope, and only one priest in the world happened to notice this? Really?


    Quote
    Even if you believe it was legit (it was not, as his only crime was teaching EENS dogma while those around him denied it)

    I have said consistently that Feeney was excommunicated for disobedience. It's the Feeneyites who want to say he was excommunicated for his teaching, in order to make him into some sort of doctrinal hero.

    Feeney was excommunicated for a protracted period of disobedience to his religious superiors, finally including the most sacred tribunal in the world, the Holy Office, who ordered him to come to Rome, whom he disobeyed.

    It's obvious to me, from reading "The Loyolas and the Cabots", that for Feeney it was never about doctrine anyway. It was about having a creepy personality cult of people who worshiped him to the point where they refused to ever receive the sacraments from any other priest. He just used this supposed heresy as a tool for controlling those people who followed him, as a way of telling them he was the only priest they could ever get the sacraments from. This was clear from the beginning of the book. When he was first ordered to leave that place, that woman who ran it went in to the bishop and said they didn't want Feeney to leave. The bishop told her she should be willing to accept the ministrations of any priest, a most correct and Catholic principle. She responded that she refused to accept any priest who didn't teach them the same ideas as Feeney did. See? The goal was control all along.

    This is made even more obvious when he was asked to go to Rome. If the purity of Catholic doctrine and the salvation of souls had been his goal all along, he would have jumped at the chance to go to Rome and report on the people who were causing so much scandal in America. But no, doctrine was never the goal. By that point he already had his weird little group of people who worshiped him, so he didn't need anything else after that, which is why he round-filed all the subsequent mail he got from his Jesuit superiors, the diocese of Boston, and even the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, which is its real name. The most sacred congregation on earth, operated directly by Christ's vicar. He continued to offer Mass and administer the sacraments even after his suspension and excommunication, which was sacrilegious.

    Shame on that evil, wretched man.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #154 on: February 16, 2024, 08:14:55 PM »
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  • Shame on that evil, wretched man.
    Copied again so it is yours in time, and eternity.

    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #155 on: February 16, 2024, 08:44:43 PM »
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  • Let's leave the theology aside for a second and just look at this situation from a common sense point of view for a second. Does it really make sense that all these theologians were teaching heresy during the reign of an unquestionably true pope, and only one priest in the world happened to notice this? Really?

    Lets just ignore the teaching of the Church and go with personal opinions and feelings*
    You're entire post is fallacious straw manning, in typical BoDer fashion you ignored everything that was contrary to your personal subjective cope.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #156 on: February 16, 2024, 10:19:33 PM »
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  • Seems like a good time to re-post evidence against the criminal who started the whole smear campaign against the dogma and Fr. Feeney - and for his efforts was later elevated to Cardinal....


    Link
    Archbishop of Boston Cushing, was made a Cardinal of the Catholic Church by Pope John XXXIII in 1958.
    He was also one of the cardinal electors in the 1963 papal conclave, which selected Pope Paul VI.
    He was on good terms with practically the entire Boston elite.
    Cushing built useful(?) relationships with Jєωs, Protestants, and institutions outside the usual Catholic community.

    At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jєωs of deicide charge.

    He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church.[16] In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades.
    He was a member of the NAACP.
    Oh, and his sister was married to a Jєω

    Link May 1945 - Cushing attends  interfaith dinner

    Link Nov. 1948 -  Archbishop Cushing, dwelling on the need for brotherhood, pledged the friendship of American Catholics with Jєωs.

    Link April 1949 - Archbishop Cushing says teaching the dogma of No salvation outside the Church is “teaching ideas leading to bigotry.” Group is censured for publishing quarterly magazine contending that persons dying outside the Church could not be saved.

    Link April 1949 - New catechism is changed, now upholds Boston College and Archbishop Cushing claim that there is salvation outside the Church.

    Link Oct. 1949 - Fr. Feeney silenced by Archbishop Cushing for preaching there is no salvation outside the Church.

    Link April 1949 - Cushing states: “This absolute requirement of an explicit desire to join the Catholic Church, as a condition of salvation is clearly wrong. All theologians hold that faith and charity or perfect contrition involving an implicit desire to join the Church suffice for salvation.” (Sounds like LoT, Ambrose, &etc.)

    Link Feb. 1953 - Cushing excommunicated “heresy priest” for disobedience, not for heresy.

    Link
    Nov. 1970  - Cardinal Cushing receives praise from the Jєωs

    Jєωιѕн leaders expressed sorrow today over the death yesterday at the age of 75 of Richard Cardinal Cushing. Archbishop of Boston since 1944 and a friend of Israel and the Jєωs. Philip E. Hoffman, president of the American Jєωιѕн Committee, said “Jєωιѕн people throughout the world will always remember with satisfaction Cardinal Cushing’s efforts to achieve an honest and meaningful statement on the Roman Catholic Church and the Jєωs five years ago in Rome at the Second Vatican Council.” Cardinal Cushing he said, “was at the forefront in this tremendously important endeavor,” and “the positive results of Vatican Council II will be a lasting memorial to the Cardinal.” World Jєωry. Mr. Hoffman said, “has lost a friend and champion.” Seymour Graubard, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. said Jєωs the world over will always remember the dramatic plea Cardinal Cushing made on the floor of Vatican Council II five years ago in Rome. “His distinctive voice echoed through the chamber as he asked the Council to “cry out” against “any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers,”

    The UAHC official added that Cardinal Cushing “was a liberal in the truest sense of the word, practicing the principles of ecuмenism long before the term became fashionable.”

    Cardinal Cushing, whose efforts at ecuмenism extended to ѕуηαgσgυє oratory, received a rare tribute when he implored Vatican Council II to reject the doctrine of Jєωιѕн guilt for the death of Jesus. The bishops, who normally do not applaud speakers, did so for him.

    Link July 1977 - Fr. Feeney, silenced in 1949, excommunicated in 1953 for condemning the teachings of Boston College that persons outside the Church could attain salvation after death, was reinstated in 1972 without having to recant his position.
    To add to this per ascent of Mt Carmel on twitter.

    Cushing was named the man of the year by the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights, which was later exposed as a communist front organization.

    The president of the Catholic Committee on Human Rights was (perhaps not coincidentally) a Jew who converted to Catholicism, and whose brother was a formal member of the American Communist Party.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as? / now on Trent IV Justi
    « Reply #157 on: February 16, 2024, 11:06:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    CHAPTER IV.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

     

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
    Ok thinking about what has been said in this thread and re-reading this decree, it actually seems strange to me that baptism of desire could come from this decree.


    "desire thereof", this either refers to the laver of regeneration or to justification itself, so that either desiring the justification justifies someone or that desiring the laver of regeneration justifies someone, this second opinion does not necessarily mean baptism by desire, since the laver is only the washing? or is it the entire sacrament? but baptism gives more than just justification, also the sacramental character.

    Who was the first to write that Trent taught Baptism of desire?

    There is also another issue, does the laver of regeneration justify someone who does not have the correct internal dispositions? If there is such a case then it would not make sense for this decree to mean either one or the other, but both being needed.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #158 on: February 17, 2024, 04:56:26 AM »
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  • .

    You are presuming Feeney is correct. But he is not correct.
    You are ignoring the major part that +Cushing played in all of this. Do you think +Cushing was correct in saying and doing all these things

    Would you say he was a good bishop, or would you say he was one of the enemies?

    Let's hear your thoughts on +Cushing.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #159 on: February 17, 2024, 03:27:35 PM »
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  • You are ignoring the major part that +Cushing played in all of this. Do you think +Cushing was correct in saying and doing all these things?

    Would you say he was a good bishop, or would you say he was one of the enemies?

    Let's hear your thoughts on +Cushing.
    .

    A lot of the things listed there are pretty bad, but I didn't see anything that indicates Abp. Cushing was a heretic, at least before Vatican 2.

    You are the one claiming that the idea of implicit faith is heretical, or that baptism of desire based on implicit faith is heretical. And yet this idea has been taught by theologians for many years, long before Vatican 2. It is even taught in the classic "DeHarbes" catechism from the 19th century.

    You need something more than your own opinion to say something is heretical, as the Church pointed out to Feeney. You need a theologian to back it up, and I have not seen any Feeneyite put forward any theologian who said baptism of desire through implicit faith is heretical.

    Moreover, even if your position were correct, it still would not justify any of Feeney's actions, nor would it excuse him from the guilt of disobedience, nor would it render his excommunication null. Your arguments are all just a red herring to take away from the evil the Feeney perpetrated.

    I'm curious what you would say to this one -- if Feeney were so desperate to correct doctrinal errors in Massachusetts, why did he refuse to go to the highest doctrinal authority in the Church for vindication? You would think he would have been there in Rome from the very beginning of this controversy, pounding on the door of the Holy Office every morning before it opened, begging them to excommunicate Abp. Cushing and everyone else who taught implicit faith, and set the record straight.

    I explained in my earlier post why I think he didn't do this, but I'm curious why you think so.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #160 on: February 17, 2024, 05:32:15 PM »
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  • .

    A lot of the things listed there are pretty bad, but I didn't see anything that indicates Abp. Cushing was a heretic, at least before Vatican 2.

    You are the one claiming that the idea of implicit faith is heretical, or that baptism of desire based on implicit faith is heretical. And yet this idea has been taught by theologians for many years, long before Vatican 2. It is even taught in the classic "DeHarbes" catechism from the 19th century.

    You need something more than your own opinion to say something is heretical, as the Church pointed out to Feeney. You need a theologian to back it up, and I have not seen any Feeneyite put forward any theologian who said baptism of desire through implicit faith is heretical.

    Moreover, even if your position were correct, it still would not justify any of Feeney's actions, nor would it excuse him from the guilt of disobedience, nor would it render his excommunication null. Your arguments are all just a red herring to take away from the evil the Feeney perpetrated.

    I'm curious what you would say to this one -- if Feeney were so desperate to correct doctrinal errors in Massachusetts, why did he refuse to go to the highest doctrinal authority in the Church for vindication? You would think he would have been there in Rome from the very beginning of this controversy, pounding on the door of the Holy Office every morning before it opened, begging them to excommunicate Abp. Cushing and everyone else who taught implicit faith, and set the record straight.

    I explained in my earlier post why I think he didn't do this, but I'm curious why you think so.
    Cushing was a heretic because he publicly denied EENS by calling it nonsense... don't get too caught up in the BoD part which came years after.


    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as? / now on Trent IV Justi
    « Reply #161 on: February 17, 2024, 08:57:44 PM »
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  • Ok thinking about what has been said in this thread and re-reading this decree, it actually seems strange to me that baptism of desire could come from this decree.


    "desire thereof", this either refers to the laver of regeneration or to justification itself, so that either desiring the justification justifies someone or that desiring the laver of regeneration justifies someone, this second opinion does not necessarily mean baptism by desire, since the laver is only the washing? or is it the entire sacrament? but baptism gives more than just justification, also the sacramental character.

    Who was the first to write that Trent taught Baptism of desire?

    There is also another issue, does the laver of regeneration justify someone who does not have the correct internal dispositions? If there is such a case then it would not make sense for this decree to mean either one or the other, but both being needed.
    Ask yourself this question; why didn't the fathers at Trent just say baptism or the desire thereof?

    Because the term laver of regeneration is used here to mean the ritual of baptism alone, absent the intent to be baptized. Trent is saying that minister, form, and matter are necessary as well as intent. So minister, form, matter, and intent of the sacrament are necessary for justification. It's such a simple Catholic thought that a child can understand. 

    JoeZ
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #162 on: February 18, 2024, 11:45:00 AM »
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  • .

    A lot of the things listed there are pretty bad, but I didn't see anything that indicates Abp. Cushing was a heretic, at least before Vatican 2.
    Again, you are ignoring the role +Cushing played in censoring Fr. Feeney. You can tell me what I think all day long but I asked if you think +Cushing was correct in saying and doing all those ecuмenical, anti-Catholic things. I presume you believe he was incorrect. I presume you would agree that +Cushing, being one of the major front runners of the NO, was one who was well ahead of his time. I say he was ahead of his time because those things he did back then were basically unheard of, but are common place since V2.

    +Cushing, the Judas, publicly denied the dogma EENS whereas Fr. Feeney publicly preached he dogma EENS. He told Fr. Feeney to shut up about the dogma, when Fr. Feeney refused, THAT'S when +Cushing pulled rank and resources to slander and silence Fr. Feeney. You demonstrate that this pleases you. Just letting you know.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as?
    « Reply #163 on: February 18, 2024, 12:05:32 PM »
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  • A lot of the things listed there are pretty bad, but I didn't see anything that indicates Abp. Cushing was a heretic, at least before Vatican 2.

    You're kidding, right?  Cushing said publicly (manifestly):  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's gonna tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."  That nobody includes the Church with her dogmatic definitions of EENS.

    This is just intellectual dishonesty on your part.  You hold practically all Novus Ordites to be manifest heretics for holding things like Religious Liberty (of which Cushing was also an ardent proponent), but then decide that Cushing is exempt simply because it causes serious problems for your sedevacantist position.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Should Feeneyites be Condemned as? / now on Trent IV Justi
    « Reply #164 on: February 18, 2024, 12:12:59 PM »
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  • Ask yourself this question; why didn't the fathers at Trent just say baptism or the desire thereof?

    Because the term laver of regeneration is used here to mean the ritual of baptism alone, absent the intent to be baptized. Trent is saying that minister, form, and matter are necessary as well as intent. So minister, form, matter, and intent of the sacrament are necessary for justification. It's such a simple Catholic thought that a child can understand.

    JoeZ

    Yes, and this is the argument for the different reading of Trent than the BoDer one ... and I find it convincing.

    Someone can receive the laver without the votum (all the proper dispositions), but that person is NOT justified.  While the Sacrament (the laver) is validly administered, it fails to have its effect of justifying an individual absent the votum.

    In fact, Trent explicitly condemned it as heretical to say that the Sacrament justifies even if the individual does not have the proper dispositions (pre-empting the Protestant smear that we believed that the Sacrament is some kind of magic that doesn't require cooperation of the will, and the word votum in Latin is related linguistically to the world "to will").

    There are so many problems with the BoDer reading of this passage in Trent that I find it 99% certain that this was not intended.

    Here's the problem in a nutshell, by way of analogy.

    "I cannot write a letter without a pencil or a pen."  This means that either OR suffices (the BoDer reading).

    "We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom."  This means that BOTH are required and that if either one is missing we cannot have the wedding.

    If you read Trent the first way, as most BoDers do, the logical corollary thereof is that one can be justified by the laver WITHOUT the votum (condemned as heretical by Trent) or else can be justified by the votum WITHOUT the Sacrament.  I won't go into more detail, since we've spent dozens of pages on it.