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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2017, 02:29:23 PM »
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  • Can a Jew die with a supernatural faith and perfect charity?
    The poster answered the question himself in his long drawnout explanation of what he believes when he did not reject the teaching that  Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator rewarded god (which is not NOT BOD, it has nothing to do with baptism of desire or blood) .

    If the poster was sincere he would have phrased the question as  he believes it: "Can a Jew die with supernatural faith and perfect charity while he remains a Jew, not believing in the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation, nor having any desire whatsoever to be a Catholic or baptized?

    The answer is in the dogmatic Athanasian Creed:

    Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ
    .
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #31 on: August 22, 2017, 02:33:55 PM »
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  • The poster answered the question himself in his long drawnout explanation of what he believes when he did not reject the teaching that  Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator rewarded god (which is not NOT BOD, it has nothing to do with baptism of desire or blood) .

    If the poster was sincere he would have phrased the question as  he believes it: "Can a Jew die with supernatural faith and perfect charity while he remains a Jew, not believing in the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation, nor having any desire whatsoever to be a Catholic or baptized?

    The answer is in the dogmatic Athanasian Creed:

    Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ
    .
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    Quote
    SUPREMA HAEC SACRA - Nor must we think that any kind of intention of entering the Church is sufficient in order that one may be saved. It is requisite that the intention by which one is ordered to the Church should be informed by perfect charity; and no explicit intention can produce its effect unless the man have supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him." The Council of Trent declares: "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children."


    Why didn't Pius XII consult one of the Feeneyites before "forgetting to add" the certain indisputable intrinsic necessity for one to believe in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation to be possible?  How careless.  This letter that articulates the infallible teaching of BOD more clearly than any other just didn't get it right according to insubordinate Feeneyites.  

    They need your prayers.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #32 on: August 22, 2017, 02:34:43 PM »
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  • Can a Jew die with a supernatural faith and perfect charity?

    According to you, yes.  According to me (and St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus and St. EVERYBODY before the year 1600), no.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #33 on: August 22, 2017, 02:36:32 PM »
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  • According to you, yes.  According to me (and St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus and St. EVERYBODY before the year 1600), no.
    False accusation, yes.  Supporting evidence.  No.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #34 on: August 22, 2017, 02:44:18 PM »
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  • False accusation, yes.  Supporting evidence.  No.

    You asked, "CAN" a Jew have supernatural faith?  You have repeatedly stated that you believe that Rewarder God theory is possible.  So therefore you would say that it CAN be the case that a Jew has supernatural faith.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #35 on: August 22, 2017, 02:54:39 PM »
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  • Notice how the poster denies the clear dogmatic Athansasian Creed and replaces it with a fallible document from 1950's. The same document used in Vatican II in support of his belief that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc... can be saved by their belief in a creator rewarder god. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #36 on: August 22, 2017, 03:15:32 PM »
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  • Just more running with scissors, licking outlets and juggling chainsaws.

    All fun and games till somebody loses a soul.

    But lighten up guy,  its not like we have to BELIEVE a CREED or anything.

    If it were such a big deal then they would have put a lot of prayerful work into it, maybe at a meeting and, if they're really serious,  have us professs it before God like before an altar maybe. Even then,  seeijng as how it's all technical, contextual, nuanced and stuff, how could a mere mortal answer God honestly when we dont undertandd what the words we're saying to God even mean?Isn't that like lying to God n'stuff?

    No, you need to ease up guy and render unto "Loverr" due docility and obedience.

    Shame… :p
    Notice how the poster denies the clear dogmatic Athansasian Creed and replaces it with a fallible document from 1950's. The same document used in Vatican II in support of his belief that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc... can be saved by their belief in a creator rewarder god.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #37 on: August 22, 2017, 07:03:57 PM »
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  • Why didn't Pius XII consult one of the Feeneyites before "forgetting to add" the certain indisputable intrinsic necessity for one to believe in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation to be possible?  How careless.  This letter that articulates the infallible teaching of BOD more clearly than any other just didn't get it right according to insubordinate Feeneyites.  

    They need your prayers.
    :sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 06:45:18 AM »
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  • To recap this thread, a lot of complaining from the false BOder who is the subject of this thread, but if one mines all his verbiage we come to see that he really does believe that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist etc (all non-Catholics) can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, that they can be saved without a desire to be a Catholic, without a desire to be baptized, without belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, without the sacraments:

    Lover of Truth said: A pagan of good faith can overcome all sorts of obstacles to obtain that good faith and chose for God rather than reject Him.  Will to do the will of God.  Do good and avoid evil for love of God.  Seek God's will at all times.  Die in a state of sanctifying grace because of his supernatural faith and perfect charity.  God does not abandon such a soul but enables it to reach the destination to which it was headed.  

    Last Tradhican  - In other words, no need for baptism of desire of the catechumen, no need for baptism of blood, no need for belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity, no need to be a Catholic, or be baptized....... this pagan can obtain "sanctifying grace because of his supernatural faith", a supernatural  faith which does not include an explicit  belief in the Mysteries of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Trinity!

    Lover of Truth said: Can you show where I insist that it is absolutely certain that explicit Faith is not needed in the Incarnation and Holy Trinity for one to be saved?  People make this claim about me as if it is an obvious given whereas if one were to search for me to have made the above claim they would search in vain.

    Last Tradhican - This is the language of a modernist, the modernist never spells out his beliefs he just gives bits and pieces here and there. Notice here that he does not spell out anything and leaves it to the listener to fill in the voids on his own. This person has close to 8000 postings and in all those postings where has he spelled out his belief? The answer is nowhere has he spelled it out. He only gives bits and pieces when he is finally cornered, but even those bits and pieces do not spell out anything specific. There was a BODer poster here named Nishant, as he went debating with those that disagreed with his position he, in a relatively short time came to a final complete conclusion and spelling out of what he believed. Everyone here knows what Nishant believes concerning BOD. THAT is an example of the opposite of the devil speak used by the person who is the subject this thread.

    Lover of Truth said - Some theologians teach that two truths must be believed with a necessity of means and others teach that four must be believed. Still others teach that four are only required in places where the Gospel has been preached but only two are required in other places. It all depends on how God willed it. He could have willed to require explicit faith in all four truths or only in two, but in either case He will infallibly grant to each soul the opportunity to arrive at explicit faith in these 2 or 4 truths as the case may be. In the Old Testament, clearly explicit faith in the Trinity was not required.


    Final Conclusion:
    We all know that some obscure modern (after the 1600’s) theologians began to teach that only two truths must be believed, by Lover of Truth saying just that, does not in any way deny the claim that he teaches that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist etc…(etc=and all other false religions) can be saved by their belief in a god (with a small g) that rewards. It is clear that he teaches exactly that. It is devil speak, Vatican II speak, and indeed what he teaches is the teaching of the Vatican II church theologians.


    In the end, the OP is exactly accurate.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 08:06:33 AM »
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  • You asked, "CAN" a Jew have supernatural faith?  You have repeatedly stated that you believe that Rewarder God theory is possible.  So therefore you would say that it CAN be the case that a Jew has supernatural faith.
    I say I do not know, and base this on the theologians having not settled this issue.  You make up your own theology based upon you gigantically prideful wit.  

    Please show an authoritative source addressing the issue of BOD where it says the is a moral unanimity among theologians that all four beliefs are necessary with an intrinsic necessity in each and every circumstance.

    Of course I'm extending you a benefit that you would not extend me as you would ask for an ex Cathedra statement addressing the BOD issue that makes this claim as you not only do not accept authoritative documents from valid popes you do not even accept the infallible teaching of the OUM.

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 08:13:12 AM »
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  • Saint Thomas Aquinas speaks of the need for belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity:
        
    But when dealing with Baptism of [desire] the Spirit he speaks thusly:


    Quote
    In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance.

    BAM!!!

    Why did he leave out the need to believe in the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Because he didn't consult with Ladislaus first.  

    Again the Feeneyite has to ignore the greatest Doctor of the Church.  Dismiss it as not being infallible.   :barf:

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #41 on: August 30, 2017, 12:34:16 PM »
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  • Here is a thread where LOT was forced to reveal what really believes.  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #42 on: August 30, 2017, 12:36:20 PM »
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  • Here is a thread where LOT was forced to reveal what really believes.  
    What do I believe that is contrary to what the Church teaches.  Show a quote from me and show a teaching of the Church teaching the contrary.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 07:48:33 AM »
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  • Quote
    "The truths which must be believed by all who have the use of reason, as an essential condition for salvation, are at least two. The two necessary articles of faith are that God exists and that He rewards them that seek Him...  It is probable that explicit belief in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation of the Son of God is necessary under the New Dispensation, but whether the opinion is true or not, it would, in practice, be grievously wrong to baptize or absolve an adult, not in immediate danger of death, who did not explicitly believe in these two mysteries...."  (Henry Davis, Moral and Pastoral Theology, vol. I).  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What Lover of Truth Believes about Salvation of non-Catholics
    « Reply #44 on: September 06, 2017, 08:11:40 AM »
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  • Lover of Heresy continues to pertinaciously reject the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas (and the Athanasian Creed) ... after having derided St. Thomas as an ignorant fool who does not understand Scripture.

     

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