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Author Topic: What is the logic of water baptism only?  (Read 3397 times)

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What is the logic of water baptism only?
« on: December 08, 2016, 11:32:33 AM »
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum and am open to learning new things about the faith. At least I think I am. After believing in BOD/BOB and invincible ignorance for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I want to believe now that its the truth. However looking more into this matter, its seems very problematic. How can God desire that all men be saved and come to the truth, when for 1500 years the Native Americans and certain parts of Asia didn't hear the gospel? The is especially troubling to me having Native American ancestry knowing that by the logic, millions of my ancestors went to Hell without even any chance of knowing Christ. It is true that God doesn't owe us salvation. This is not at dispute. However God seems to be the God of reason as well. And I can't think of any good reason why he would let them remain in ignorance for such a long time. Why even create them? Even if they were to go to Limbo, (which as far I know isn't dogma) why have them be born and have no choice but to go to a place, thats even lesser than the Beatific Vision? I have heard many say those who remained ignorant, were left there because of other sins. And that if they were sincere they would have received the Gospel. This is still problematic. So out of Millions of Natives and Asians, not single one of them was sincere for 1500 years? I'm sorry I just cant buy that. That seems absurd. Yes God can give some sincere people internal inspiration. But why not use some of those who he gave internal inspiration, to go out and preach to the other natives and asians? Why wait so many years? And I have yet to see any actual evidence that there was preaching of Christianity there before Columbus. Some have tried citing Barry Fell as havinf evidence. However 95% of other scholars reject his work and see it as pseudoscience. If someone could find any actual scholarly evidence that there was preaching. That would atleast help a little. If not the above problem still remains. So why wait so long to give them the chance of salvation? This is like me having two kids who are sick, and only giving medicine to one of then. How is this not like Calvinism, in the sense that certain people didn't get to choose a path for salvation?

What is the logic of water baptism only?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 12:28:33 PM »
The sins of the fathers are visited upon their children. It is up to the children to remove them. But when these children continue in the path of sin, they remain in ignorance and then there are entire generations remaining so. Ignorance of the True Faith is a punishment for sin. As far as the native, think of the biblical story of the lone Ethiopian, an eunuch, whom God sent Philip to baptize him (Act of Apostles, 8:26). Really meditate upon this example.

Also, think of the truly miraculous apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe to Juan Diego upon discovering the New World and how in that precise moment, hundreds of natives were brought to the Faith and thus became heirs of Heaven. This was a true sign of God and it occurred in the Year of Our Lord 1531. It was not like God have rejected the entirety of natives; He just revealed Himself to them as a whole in the right period of time according to His Eternal Wisdom, which we cannot and should not try to comprehend.

As far as the quote you have brought to speak about the universal salvific will of God:

Quote
God wills all men to be saved


you are forgetting the next part of it:

Quote
and to come to the knowledge of the truth


Which means to come to the knowledge of His Church. We know therefore, that God wishes all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and thereby to be saved. It is a heresy to say that God wants all men to be saved without coming to the knowledge of the truth. If there is a native to whom God knows is willing to receive this knowledge and has a righteous disposition and a sincere will, then God will get him a missionary as He did the lonely eunuch from Scripture. If no missionary comes, it will be because God foresees that no missionary would be received, were he to come.  






What is the logic of water baptism only?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 12:58:00 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella
The sins of the fathers are visited upon their children. It is up to the children to remove them. But when these children continue in the path of sin, they remain in ignorance and then there are entire generations remaining so. Ignorance of the True Faith is a punishment for sin.

^ True.

 As far as the native, think of the biblical story of the lone Ethiopian, an eunuch, whom God sent Philip to baptize him (Act of Apostles, 8:26). Really meditate upon this example.

^ I already know about this example. The problem is there is no evidence that this ever happened in the Americas before Columbus. No evidence of Christianity found there. And not to mention that Ethiopa is not that far away from where the Apostles lived. Its simple, God could have sent an angel to a sincere Native and baptize him. And could have used that Native to preach to others. There is no evidence of that either. Like I said, why give one kid medicine and the other none, when both are sick.

Also, think of the truly miraculous apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe to Juan Diego upon discovering the New World and how in that precise moment, hundreds of natives were brought to the Faith and thus became heirs of Heaven. This was a true sign of God and it occurred in the Year of Our Lord 1531.

^ That is private revelation. And it also happened after Columbus.

It was not like God have rejected the entirety of natives; He just revealed Himself to them as a whole in the right period of time according to His Eternal Wisdom, which we cannot and should not try to comprehend.

^ No obviously not the entirety. It sure as hell was a lot of them though. Were talking millions. You mean to tell me that NOT A SINGLE ONE out millions was sincere? Not one would have accepted the Gospel at the time before Columbus? This seems to absurd to believe.


As far as the quote you have brought to speak about the universal salvific will of God:

Quote
God wills all men to be saved


you are forgetting the next part of it:

Quote
and to come to the knowledge of the truth


Which means to come to the knowledge of His Church. We know therefore, that God wishes all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and thereby to be saved. It is a heresy to say that God wants all men to be saved without coming to the knowledge of the truth. If there is a native to whom God knows is willing to receive this knowledge and has a righteous disposition and a sincere will, then God will get him a missionary as He did the lonely eunuch from Scripture. If no missionary comes, it will be because God foresees that no missionary would be received, were he to come.  

^ And how are you sure that nobody would have received the Gospel? The whole entire continent would have rejected it? So he can send missionaries and angels to Europe, Middle East, and Africa, But Asia and the Americas have to deal with "too bad, so sad"? That blows. Like I said, if you can find evidence that there was preachers or angels before Columbus, that would be helpful.





What is the logic of water baptism only?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 02:56:31 PM »
I came across this article that might be of some help

The Salvation of the Pre-Columbian Amerindian

And another one:

America's First Christmas Card

What is the logic of water baptism only?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 04:47:01 PM »
Two stories come to mind that might be helpful here.

One is the report of Jesuit missionaries traveling in Southwest America, probably the New Mexico or Arizona region, before they were states.  These priests encountered a large group of American Indians approaching them from far away, over the vast expanse of arid land.  The natives came directly toward the missionaries as if they were being guided by some unseen helper.  When they finally arrived, an interpreter exchanged messages so that the priests were told that a woman had been coming to them for many years, teaching them the Catholic Faith, and she had told them where and when they would find the "Blackrobes" who would give them the Sacraments.  The Jesuit priests (who wore black cassocks) inquired as to the appearance of this mysterious woman, and answering their questions the Indians described Venerable Mary of Agreda, a nun who had never left Spain (in Europe).

Bilocation is not unprecedented in the history of the Church, the most popularly known examples being the case history of Padre Pio.  The Indians in the desert were already well-disposed to be baptized and receive the sacraments from these missionaries.  There is a city in that region that could be a longstanding testimony to their lives, merely by its name, Santa Fe, New Mexico. Santa Fe translates, "Holy Faith."

The other story is regarding the Virgin of Guadalupe.

Long before 1531, when the Spanish Conquistadors were advancing in Mexico, there was a battle where the Spanish were outnumbered by the Aztec warriors, and historians looking at the figures say it seems the Aztecs should have won, even though they had swords and hand weapons while the Spaniards had guns.  But remember, flintlocks took a long time to reload.  The reason the Spanish won the battle would told many years later by an eyewitness, who was one of the Aztec soldiers who was a young man at the time.  He was a survivor of the battle his army had lost.  When he grew old, he became a fixture in town because when he would walk down the lane he would pause at a shrine to La Virgen de Guadalupe, saying in his native nahuatl language (Aztec) words to the effect as follows, "I, though unworthy, saw her with my eyes, and she, Our Lady, threw dust in them."

He was describing how the Aztec soldiers on the top of a hill, saw in the sky above the advancing Spanish soldiers, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe, who made a sweeping motion with her arm, throwing some kind of dust through the air which got into the eyes of the Aztecs, leaving them unable to see, long enough for the Spanish to overcome them in battle.  

It was not until A.D. 1666 when Rome finally took up the case of the appearance of the "Dark Virgin" in Mexico in the jurisdiction of Bishop de Zumarraga, to the Mexican merchant named Juan Diego.  Rome needed certain things to give its approval to the apparition, that is, permission for Catholics to venerate the Image of the lady who appeared to Juan Diego, as left on his tilma (cloak).  Rome needed some docuмented record of the event, which was supplied by a single line of text in a record book, which was abbreviated and would make no sense to us today, unless we knew the Latin abbreviations in common use at the time.  Another requirement was a personal testimony.

The personal testimony was supplied by an old Mexican man who explained that when he was a young boy, an elderly man in Mexico told him the story he had heard as a boy, which was told to him by an old man who said that when he was a young boy he had seen this old man walking in the streets of Mexico, who would exclaim the same thing every time he passed a shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe.  Rome checked their records to find that the Spanish did indeed fight such a battle the victory of which was not clearly explained, which had taken place about 20 years prior to 1531.  

So the Virgin of Guadalupe was active in Mexico long before she appeared to Juan Diego.  This goes to show why, when the pilgrims who came from far and wide would take one look at the Image on Juan Diego's tilma, they received the Faith and requested Baptism.

The priests in Mexico City at that time baptized a steady stream of local people every day for about 9 years, sometimes suffering severe fatigue from the soreness in their hands due to administering so many baptisms.