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Author Topic: What is a BOD?  (Read 6444 times)

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Re: What is a BOD?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 07:38:48 AM »
Fr. Stehlin gave a wonderful sermon for Corpus Christi last year on Eucharistic Miracles, Spiritual Communions, everything related to the Bread of Life and its Supreme Importance. I was visiting the priory at the time. Fr. S is very holy imho. Father said, we are encouraged by Mother Church to make many acts of Spiritual Communion throughout the day, beside the Sacramental Communion we receive once. And - which surprised me at the time, but which on further reading turned out to be well docuмented in traditional authors - by Spiritual Communion, we can often receive graces comparable to actual Sacramental Communion. Writing in the 19th century, Fr. Mueller said we can even sometimes gain greater graces by Spiritual Communion than someone else, without fervency and devotion, gains in reception of the actual Sacrament. See below for more on that.

There is no doubt Baptism of Desire exists, and that we may obtain justification by it; Baptism of Desire is nothing other than an Act of Contrition or Perfect Love of God united to the Desire of receiving the Sacraments; this is taught by St. Alphonsus and Pope St. Pius X.

In the Bible, as Fr. Haydock explains, we see Cornelius, for e.g. receive justification before receiving Baptism, through contrition and desire. Fr. Feeney never denied that the grace of justification could be obtained by BOD, but held the grace of final perseverance would be bestowed on the faithful soul after the reception of the Sacrament. It appears St. Augustine taught something similar to Fr. Feeney.

Ver. 47. Can any man forbid water? &c. Or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? Wi. — Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4. Taken from: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml

Quote from: Fr. Mueller, the Blessed Eucharist
"This devotion [Spiritual Communion] is so full of grace and consolation that it is of the greatest importance that everyone should know how to practice it. I will therefore say a word in explanation of it. 

Spiritual Communion, according to St. Thomas, consists in an ardent desire to receive our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament. It is performed by making an act of faith in the presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, and then an act of love, and an act of contrition for having offended Him. The soul then invites Him to come and unite Himself to her and make her entirely His own; and lastly, she thanks Him as if she had really received Him sacramentally. 

The Spiritual Communion may be made in the following manner: "O my Jesus, I firmly believe that Thou art truly and really present in the Most Holy Sacrament. I love Thee with my whole heart, and because I love Thee, I am sorry for having offended Thee. I long to possess Thee within my soul, but as I cannot now receive Thee sacramentally, come at least in spirit into my heart. I unite myself to Thee as if Thou wert already there; never let me be separated from Thee."

 The graces which are bestowed in this way are so great that they may be likened to those which are imparted by an actual reception of the Sacrament. 

One day Our Lord Himself told St. Jane of the Cross that as often as she communicated spiritually she received a grace similar to that which she received from her Sacramental Communions. He also appeared to Sister Paula Maresca, foundress of the Convent of St. Catherine of Siena at Naples, with two vessels, one of gold and the other of silver, and told her that in the golden vessel He preserved her Sacramental Communions and in the silver vessel her spiritual Communions. The Fathers of the Church go so far as to say that one who has a very great desire for Communion, accompanied with great reverence and humility, may sometimes receive even more graces than another who, without these dispositions, should actually receive Our Lord in the Sacramental species; for as the Psalmist says: "The Lord hears the desire of the poor, and fills their hearts with good things." 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What is a BOD?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 10:52:48 AM »
There is no doubt Baptism of Desire exists, and that we may obtain justification by it; ...

False, there's plenty of doubt.  Its theological origins are in pure speculation, and it has never been demonstrated to either have been revealed or to be necessarily derived implicitly from explicitly revealed truth.  Consequently, it can never be the object of divine faith.

Spiritual Communion has nothing to do with this topic.  If you think that it does, then it's clear that you haven't any proper theological foundation regarding the ex opere operato effect of the Sacraments.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What is a BOD?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 11:04:41 AM »
Proponents of BoD regularly contradict one another and themselves.

So, for instance, one of the Pope Innocent quotations in favor of BoD states that those who die immediately after justification by BoD go immediately to heaven.  Yet St. Alphonsus states that this is not true, that the temporal punishment due to their sins is not entirely remitted.  Now, this letter from Innocent has the same authority as another letter cited by St. Alphonsus as allegedly making it de fide.  So by his own standards this would make St. Alphonsus a heretic (objectively speaking) for claiming that temporal punishment is not remitted.

It's the clear dogmatic teaching of the Church (in Trent) that this state of initial justification (vs. re-justification after Confession for instance) entails a complete rebirth after which no stain of sin can remain.

Various proponents of BoD (including top-tier theologians) cite the Holy Innocents as examples for BoB and the Good Thief for BoD ... without realizing that neither of these has any probative value because Baptism had not been made mandatory yet and the mode of justification in force was still that of the Old Dispensation.

BoD is shrouded with mirk and mess, and it's caused nothing but confusion ... especially after it got later extended from the original application to Catechumens all the way down to infidels who merely follow the natural law.

In fact, the very origins of the new Vatican II ecclesiology derive from BoD theory.  So all the modern errors ultimately go back to that.  If I believed in implicit BoD, I would immediately drop any objection to Vatican II ... since it all follows from that.

Re: What is a BOD?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 07:52:44 PM »
Proponents of BoD regularly contradict one another and themselves.

So, for instance, one of the Pope Innocent quotations in favor of BoD states that those who die immediately after justification by BoD go immediately to heaven.  Yet St. Alphonsus states that this is not true, that the temporal punishment due to their sins is not entirely remitted.  Now, this letter from Innocent has the same authority as another letter cited by St. Alphonsus as allegedly making it de fide.  So by his own standards this would make St. Alphonsus a heretic (objectively speaking) for claiming that temporal punishment is not remitted.

It's the clear dogmatic teaching of the Church (in Trent) that this state of initial justification (vs. re-justification after Confession for instance) entails a complete rebirth after which no stain of sin can remain.

Various proponents of BoD (including top-tier theologians) cite the Holy Innocents as examples for BoB and the Good Thief for BoD ... without realizing that neither of these has any probative value because Baptism had not been made mandatory yet and the mode of justification in force was still that of the Old Dispensation.

BoD is shrouded with mirk and mess, and it's caused nothing but confusion ... especially after it got later extended from the original application to Catechumens all the way down to infidels who merely follow the natural law.

In fact, the very origins of the new Vatican II ecclesiology derive from BoD theory.  So all the modern errors ultimately go back to that.  If I believed in implicit BoD, I would immediately drop any objection to Vatican II ... since it all follows from that.
On the assumption that implicit BOD exists (I realize you disagree with this) I still have three major concerns with Vatican II.  


1: the language on salvation outside the visible bounds of the Church is extremely vague, such that someone could read it as being in agreement with Archbishop Lefebvre (I realize you still don't agree with Lefebvre) on the issue, and someone else could read it as supporting one step shy of universalism like Bishop Barron does.  I believe Unitatis Redintegratio says that Protestant communities "Are not deprived of significance in the mystery of salvation" or something like that.  That could mean as little as their baptisms being valid, that their little children who die before the age of reason are saved, and that in some cases someone's time in Protestantism might be their first step toward ultimately finding Catholicism.  You could theoretically say nobody who dies in a Protestant community after the age of reason is saved, and still technically affirm that wording.  On the flip side, you could be a universalist, think Protestants have no need to convert, and also affirm it.

2: Ecuмenism.  While its arguable that this is a strategic issue and not dogmatic, there is a leap between "Some people might be saved in X condition" and "we should be ecuмenical with X group."

3: Religious liberty.  Same deal.  False religion is still harmful to souls, even if some souls might be saved *despite* said religions via baptism of desire.  Vatican II at least seems to suggest that religious liberty is a human right.  TBH this is the only thing in  Vatican II that I'm aware of that I can't think of a good explanation for how it would fit with what was taught in the past.  The rest of it, it seems, *can* be read in an orthodox way, but is extremely easy to read in a heretical way.

I'm not arguing here against you that BOD exists, because I don't know nearly enough to have that debate, but I'm curious why, if it does, the above wouldn't still be legitimate objections to Vatican II.

Re: What is a BOD?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2019, 12:58:25 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
False, there's plenty of doubt.
:facepalm: Looks like someone has fallen into BOD-doubtism now. Say, Ladislaus, when are you gonna actually start learning your Faith from the Catholic Church, and not from the Dimon Brothers?  ;D

St. Robert Bellarmine seems specifically to be answering you: "De Controversiis, “De Baptismo,” Lib. I, Cap. VI: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water not out of contempt but out of necessity... For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities...Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire (in re vel in voto)”.

Our Lord Jesus Himself told St. Catherine of Sienna, He poured Water and Blood from His Sacred Heart, to show us the Baptism of Love. "I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood, because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed." This is what is called baptism of desire, to desire Baptism with the affection of love. But of course who is a mere St. Catherine, or even the Lord Jesus, compared to Ladislaus and Peter Dimond, right?

And this is the passage of St. Alphonsus: Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment." Perfect Contrition remits mortal sins. Venial sins remain. This is true both before and after Baptism. Even after forgiveness of mortal sin, temporal punishment for forgiven sins remain. It is part of the extraordinary effect of the Sacrament of Baptism that all mortal sin, all venial sin and all else is removed.

St. Alphonsus says there's no doubt about BOD mainly because of the Council of Trent, which is a dogmatic Council; the letters of Pope Innocent, which you misrepresent and misunderstand completely, are authentic teaching where the Roman Pontiff purposely passes judgment on a disputed question that must therefore be adhered to with religious assent as Pope Pius XII taught.

"if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official docuмents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians." (Humani Generis, p.20)

Quote
So by his own standards this would make St. Alphonsus a heretic (objectively speaking) for claiming that temporal punishment is not remitted.
No, o erring man of great temerity, you have fallen into heresy, and you need to reflect on the state of your soul. You need to question why Doctors of the highest learning and of the greatest sanctity disagree with you. But you are a Dimond disciple and they have confused you. Unlike Catholics, you don't get your understanding of Scripture from Church-Approved Catholic Commentaries.

Fr. Haydock tells you Cornelius was justified as a Catechumen. A sensible Catholic would therefore not doubt that BOD is divinely revealed in Sacred Scripture, by the Holy Ghost through the first Pope St. Peter himself, "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament."