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Author Topic: What is a BOD?  (Read 2682 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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What is a BOD?
« on: April 17, 2019, 06:14:48 AM »
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    • From here.

    Quote from: Ladislaus on April 15, 2019, 07:22:35 PM

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    BoD theology is complete garbage that's predicated on one false premise after another, and it makes a mockery of God's providence.  That's how faulty is the "reasoning" behind it.  It's not theological reasoning at all, but emoting, emoting in the same category as those who shake their fists at God for being unmerciful when some tragedy befalls them.  We most certainly believe that God is Merciful; we just disagree on how His Mercy works in the hearts of men.

    Quote from: Your Friend Colin on Yesterday at 06:34:01 PM

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    So then what is Baptism of Desire? What did the Council of Trent, the Saints, and Doctors mean when they spoke of BoD?
    Genuinely curious about this doctrine.
    A BOD is not a doctrine of the Church and it has no definition at all, in fact, it has 100s of different definitions, depending on who you ask.

    What one of the many different ideas of it is, is an idea that man can save himself, that before his death, some impossible-for-God situation occurs that prevented God from providing the person the sacrament of baptism, even though the person presumably desired to receive it as much as God surely desired to provide it. The person is said to have died without ever having received the sacrament of baptism, albeit desiring the sacrament, and on that account was saved by that desire. In all cases of a BOD, the recipient of a BOD is saved never having been sacramentally baptized and by some desire, in the case of all BOD recipients, the road to heaven is paved with a good intention.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #1 on: April 17, 2019, 10:45:04 AM »
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    • Does BOD somehow make use of the H20 which is naturally occurring in the air?  



    Some mornings, my Hampshires are totally wet from the fog near that rolls in near their pen :farmer:

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #2 on: April 17, 2019, 11:56:07 AM »
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    • BOD is an inherent deistic belief. Deists believe that God does not interfere in the world, and that's what BODders must also believe if they think God was somehow unwilling to grant Baptism to someone who desired it.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »
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    • Why is the OP phrased "What is a BOD?"  

    Like why are we asking what "a" BOD is?
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 08:56:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 18, 2019, 07:21:11 PM
    Why is the OP phrased "What is a BOD?"  

    Like why are we asking what "a" BOD is?
    A Baptism of Water
    A Baptism of Blood
    A Baptism of Desire
    It did sound a bit odd when I first read. I think Stubborn might be mocking it a bit by adding "a".
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 08:59:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on April 18, 2019, 08:56:02 PM
    A Baptism of Water
    A Baptism of Blood
    A Baptism of Desire
    It did sound a bit odd when I first read. I think Stubborn might be mocking it a bit by adding "a".
    Makes sense.

    What did Thomas Aquinas say about this exactly?  I realize he wasn't infallible, but if I understand correctly, he taught Baptism of Desire, and it would seem his views should be respected by Catholics even if/though they aren't infallible.
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #6 on: April 18, 2019, 09:15:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 18, 2019, 08:59:27 PM
    Makes sense.

    What did Thomas Aquinas say about this exactly?  I realize he wasn't infallible, but if I understand correctly, he taught Baptism of Desire, and it would seem his views should be respected by Catholics even if/though they aren't infallible.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
    No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" as is stated 1 Corinthians 3:15.
    The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).
    Sorry for the fomatting. I just copied and pasted.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 01:17:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 18, 2019, 08:59:27 PM
    Makes sense.

    What did Thomas Aquinas say about this exactly?  I realize he wasn't infallible, but if I understand correctly, he taught Baptism of Desire, and it would seem his views should be respected by Catholics even if/though they aren't infallible.
    Found this on the internet:
    Quote
    As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly [there are the key words]; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fullness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism. Yet catechumens who die without baptism can be saved but only as through fire. That is, they are absolved of eternal punishment, not temporal punishment.”
    STh III, q. 69, a. 4.
    The perplexing thing is that Saint Thomas Aquinas believes that baptism by desire only remits eternal punishment and not the temporal punishment due to sins. In other words, the believer without sacramental baptism would still endure the “salvation through fire” of 1 Corinthians 3:15, i.e. purgatory. We find more information about this in Summa theologiae III 68 a. 2 ad 2:
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    No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom “contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism,” i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without “faith that worketh by charity”), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, “but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire” as is stated 1 Corinthians 3:15.
    Saint Thomas Aquinas further describes the distinction between in explicit and implicit faith in his Treatise on Faith found in II-II:
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    If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.”
    STh II-II q. 2 a. 7 ad 3 – emphasis mine.
    I probably shouldn’t be amazed, but I’m rather shocked that Saint Thomas Aquinas had explored these regions of soteriology. Especially in the last quote (from II-II), one can see that this sort of reasoning is the basis of Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium 16 which reads:
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    Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too many achieve eternal salvation.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 04:20:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 18, 2019, 07:21:11 PM
    Why is the OP phrased "What is a BOD?"  

    Like why are we asking what "a" BOD is?
    Quite perceptive of you ByzCat3000. I mainly put it that way because there are literally dozens, if not hundreds of different, often contradictory ideas of what a BOD even is.

    To ask: "What is BOD?" is to start off admitting that such a thing as BOD, as commonly understood, is actually possible and that it actually exists.

    I do not admit that it exits at all, I admit that there is no such thing and that it contradicts all of the teachings of the Church with regards to the necessity of sacramental baptism for salvation, and because in all cases of BOD, there is the absolute necessity of rejecting the Providence of God, which makes the whole idea a very grave insult to God. Also inherent and explicit in all cases of a BOD, is that the person's untimely death was just as big of a surprise to God, as it was to the person who died unexpectedly.

    So while different ideas of what BOD do exist, it is obviously not a doctrine of God, rather, it is a doctrine of man about God, or about something else, which in the end, always amounts to the idea that runs contrary to defined dogma and all the teachings of the Church, that there actually is salvation outside the Church.

    Scripture and defined dogma is simply written in apodictic terms, which quite obviously dictates that there is no salvation without the sacrament - and a BOD, regardless of which idea of it one subscribes too, is no sacrament.  

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 04:36:35 AM »
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    • "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." - Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Even the great saint admitted he was teaching "his views" on the sacrament of baptism and that they could well be erroneous.

    Some 300 years after St. Thomas died, the infallible judgement of the Church declared that the sacrament was necessary for salvation. I think it is safe to say that St. Thomas would have done as he said and submitted to this judgement of the Church, as should we all.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 05:35:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 19, 2019, 04:36:35 AM
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." - Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Even the great saint admitted he was teaching "his views" on the sacrament of baptism and that they could well be erroneous.

    Some 300 years after St. Thomas died, the infallible judgement of the Church declared that the sacrament was necessary for salvation. I think it is safe to say that St. Thomas would have done as he said and submitted to this judgement of the Church, as should we all.
    To be clear, my argument was just that it seems like St Thomas' views should be respected, not that they should automatically be endorsed.

    Didn't St Alphonsus also hold to BOD after Trent?  Which would mean, at the least, he didn't see a conflict between Trent and BOD? 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #11 on: April 20, 2019, 03:21:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 19, 2019, 05:35:16 PM
    To be clear, my argument was just that it seems like St Thomas' views should be respected, not that they should automatically be endorsed.

    Didn't St Alphonsus also hold to BOD after Trent?  Which would mean, at the least, he didn't see a conflict between Trent and BOD?
    It is not a matter of respecting or disrespecting the greatest theologian's views, it is a matter of us submitting to the judgement of the Church after his example - as he vowed to do. If we are to respect him, we must make that same vow.

    The BODers love to quote the saints and fathers who at one time or another and for whatever reason, contrary to Scripture and defined dogma, taught that salvation was attainable without the sacrament. I like to think that like St. Augustine, who in his book of Retractions, retracted his view favoring a BOD, St. Alphonsus also did the same.

    Because contrary to what he is quoted to have taught regarding a BOD, he teaches in his commentary on the Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV he teaches:

    Quote
    The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire (in voto).

    Taken from:  (An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #12 on: April 20, 2019, 05:09:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 20, 2019, 03:21:06 AM
    It is not a matter of respecting or disrespecting the greatest theologian's views, it is a matter of us submitting to the judgement of the Church after his example - as he vowed to do. If we are to respect him, we must make that same vow.

    The BODers love to quote the saints and fathers who at one time or another and for whatever reason, contrary to Scripture and defined dogma, taught that salvation was attainable without the sacrament. I like to think that like St. Augustine, who in his book of Retractions, retracted his view favoring a BOD, St. Alphonsus also did the same.

    Because contrary to what he is quoted to have taught regarding a BOD, he teaches in his commentary on the Council of Trent, Session VII, Canon IV he teaches:

    Taken from:  (An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)
    Why can a soul be saved with only desire for the Eucharist, but not only by desire for baptism?

    Sacred Scripture as far as I know describes both in similar terms.  I get that if the Church teaches it, its right, but I'm still trying to understand why in this case.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #13 on: April 20, 2019, 05:47:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 20, 2019, 05:09:51 PM
    Why can a soul be saved with only desire for the Eucharist, but not only by desire for baptism?

    Sacred Scripture as far as I know describes both in similar terms.  I get that if the Church teaches it, its right, but I'm still trying to understand why in this case.
    Yeah, it's a bit confusing why the "Providence of God" argument can't be used in the same way regarding desire for Eucharist as it is regarding desire for Baptism. Why don't we say "If someone truly wanted the Eucharist yada yada, God would've given it to them" the same way we do for Baptism?
    Clearly there must be a reason behind the distinction made here, otherwise I can't imagine it being made, but I can't find it. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What is a BOD?
    « Reply #14 on: April 20, 2019, 06:55:56 PM »
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    • Quote
    Why can a soul be saved with only desire for the Eucharist, but not only by desire for baptism?
    That's not what Trent is saying.  Trent is saying that 1) baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, 2) Penance is necessary for those who need it, 3) the Eucharist is necessary for those who are able to receive it (thus desire suffices, in some cases).  But one cannot properly desire the Eucharist who is not a Catholic, being that Baptism makes one a child of God and gives sanctifying grace.  A non-baptized person cannot desire the Eucharist with the proper spiritual intent, because their soul is in darkness due to Original Sin.
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