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Author Topic: What BODers do NOT Believe  (Read 2397 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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What BODers do NOT Believe
« on: August 11, 2017, 08:14:47 AM »
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    • Those who understand EENS as the Church does which BOD helps properly interpret the following is what Catholic "BODers" do NOT believe:

    1.  The EENS only applies only to those not culpably outside the Church.

    2.  That supernatural faith is not always necessary for salvation.  

    3.  That those outside the Church in "good faith" inculpably ignorant of her necessity and willing to to the will of God are automatically united with the Church by desire.

    4.  That non-members of the Church will be judged solely on how the followed their conscience and not in regards to the necessity of faith or any other requisites.  

    Stated positively, what Catholics believe in regards to BOD as it pertains to the EENS dogma is as follows:

    1.  EENS applies to all outside the Church.

    2.  Supernatural Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.

    3.  Inculpable ignorance by itself does not save anyone.

    4.  Non-members will be damned if they do not have a supernatural faith and perfect charity.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 09:32:10 AM »
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    • All your double negatives make you post more confusing that it normally is.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 09:37:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2017, 09:32:10 AM
    All your double negatives make you post more confusing that it normally is.
    It is quite easy to understand.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 09:50:30 AM »
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    • If you say so.  You are well versed in the art of over complicating things.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 11:04:34 AM »
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    • Perhaps it that you are well versed in not understanding things.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 11:25:23 AM »
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    • Quote
    Stated positively, what Catholics believe in regards to BOD as it pertains to the EENS dogma is as follows:

    1.  EENS applies to all outside the Church.

    2.  Supernatural Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.

    3.  Inculpable ignorance by itself does not save anyone.

    4.  Non-members will be damned if they do not have a supernatural faith and perfect charity.
    1. But most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it.

    2. You can have that too, without the Church and the Sacraments.

    3. No, but that usually brings one to one of the other alternative mechanisms that do.

    4. True, but they can have that without knowing that they do by being "good".

    That is stated positively for what modern liberal Catholics believe............
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 11:33:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 09:37:29 AM
    It is quite easy to understand. 
    again:  Calls him a liar, in public, unsubstantiated, which is…?
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 11:35:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on August 11, 2017, 11:25:23 AM
    1. But most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it.

    2. You can have that too, without the Church and the Sacraments.

    3. No, but that usually brings one to one of the other alternative mechanisms that do.

    4. True, but they can have that without knowing that they do by being "good".

    That is stated positively for what modern liberal Catholics believe............
    Show me a quote where I say "Most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it."
    You obviously do not know how one can obtain supernatural Faith and perfect Charity apart from Baptism.

    Yes baptism of blood and baptism of desire cleanses the soul of original sin but I have not heard it called an "alternative mechanism" but I guess you could call it that if you like but the preferable description would be "sanctifying grace" or "supernatural faith and perfect charity".

    What you stated is ca ca nonsense.  The modern teaching came to us in the 1900's from Father Feeney.  He was corrected by the Catholic Church for that.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 11:44:16 AM »
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    • So, wonder why, council of Trent(??) for example,  the SACRAMENT of Baptism is  called THE (singular) gateway(c.f. "Gates of Hell") to THE (singular) spiritual LIFE?

    No, this isn't on topic."Sauce for the goose…" Too bad I can't copy/paste… (hint hi nt)
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline ryanaugustine

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 11:45:21 AM »
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    • LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

    I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

    But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 11:45:53 AM »
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    • Or the desire thereof.  Hello?  Listen, if Liguori is not good enough for you I sure won't be.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 11:48:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: ryanaugustine on August 11, 2017, 11:45:21 AM
    LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

    I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

    But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.
    Why would a teaching care if the uninstructed tells him he is wrong apart from being concerned for the uninstructed?  Mary sat at the feet of the Master.  You would stand up and tell him He was wrong. 

    If the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes are not good enough for you I can't help you.  Maybe there are a couple of untrained layboys out there that can help.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #12 on: August 11, 2017, 11:49:17 AM »
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    • Quote
     The modern teaching came to us in the 1900's from Father Feeney.  He was corrected by the Catholic Church for that. 
    No he was not. Get you facts straight or develop enough good will to be honest.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #13 on: August 11, 2017, 11:52:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on August 11, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
    No he was not. Get you facts straight or develop enough good will to be honest.
    The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (here) clearly states, 


    Quote
    "Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities". 

    The circuмstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here. Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline ryanaugustine

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    Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
    « Reply #14 on: August 11, 2017, 11:54:40 AM »
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    • <<Why would a teaching care if the uninstructed tells him he is wrong apart from being concerned for the uninstructed?  Mary sat at the feet of the Master.  You would stand up and tell him He was wrong.>>

    You misunderstand.  I said you are wrong about being a teacher.  I did not say your "teaching" is wrong.

    But since you equate yourself with Our Lord, I can tell you that yours is not the voice of Truth.
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