Author Topic: Justification  (Read 4965 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Re: Justification
« Reply #210 on: August 09, 2017, 03:53:53 PM »
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  • Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” 
    Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #211 on: August 09, 2017, 04:14:09 PM »
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  • First off, a 'moral theology' book is not infallible.  Secondly, Trent is not clear enough on who, what, when, where and how justification works.  It would, theoretically, ONLY apply to formal catechumens, who are studying for the Faith, and who have yet to be baptized.  It applies to no one else.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #212 on: August 09, 2017, 04:56:38 PM »
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  •  :applause:

    Offline Binechi

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #213 on: August 09, 2017, 05:32:28 PM »
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  • Define Justification

    Council of Trent ...Session 6 , chptr 4.

    SESS. 6, CHAP. 4 OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

    OBJECTION- In Session 6, Chapter 4 of its decree on Justification, the Council of Trent teaches that justification can take place through the water of baptism or the desire for it.

    ANSWER- No, it doesn’t. It actually teaches that justification cannot take place without water baptism or the desire for it, as it is written: unless a man is born again of water and the Spirit he cannot be saved. That’s quite different.

    ==============================================================
    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4: “In these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, CANNOT TAKE PLACE WITHOUT the laver of regeneration or a desire for it,

    AS IT IS WRITTEN:  " Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).”
    ===============================================================

    Offline Binechi

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #214 on: August 09, 2017, 05:52:21 PM »
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  • What Trent is telling us , or explaining is , the transition of being regenerated from the first Adam, (the devil), to the second adam, Jesus Christ, made a heir to his kingdom, receiving all the other benefits , Original sin and all other sins taken away, becoming a member of the Church.  
    The requirements for this is that you have a desire to receive Baptism, and do receive Sacramental Baptism.  
    It explains , "What Cannot take Place", to receive this said Justification.
    What cannot take place is if one of the two are missing,  no water ,no desire,  no Justification
    Justification is not a physicial trate,  it is a "Term", defined in words, as to what can and cannot happen to be considered "In the State of Justification".

    Justification is not Salvation 
    Justification can be lost in one Mortal Sin, the mark on the soul remains from baptism 

    That's it Folks , Plain and simple
    More to come on the erroneous reading from Denzinger s  that every uses but will not accept the error >>


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #215 on: August 10, 2017, 12:10:42 PM »
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  • Pope Eugene was speaking about schismatics who broke away and was warning them, unless they ....  

    You know the rest of the words.  

    Ah, yes, the +McKenna position that this was nothing more than a hyperbole to emphasize the gravity of schism ... vs. being a doctrinal definition.

    Offline ryanaugustine

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #216 on: August 10, 2017, 12:19:35 PM »
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  • LoT, your incessant spamming of quotes in the past days completely derailed the discussion making it impossible to follow.  I am here to see and occasionally participate in the hope of learning and gaining understanding.  You have prevented this from happening on this thread and on many others.  I am grateful that you have stopped, or at least temporarily halted, this practice on another thread, but the damage is done.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #217 on: August 10, 2017, 02:58:00 PM »
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  • LoT, your incessant spamming of quotes in the past days completely derailed the discussion making it impossible to follow.  I am here to see and occasionally participate in the hope of learning and gaining understanding.  You have prevented this from happening on this thread and on many others.  I am grateful that you have stopped, or at least temporarily halted, this practice on another thread, but the damage is done.
    Since you seem new here.  I personally do not know LOT, however, most of those who deny Church teachings about BOD/BOB do not read what he writes, but I think he wants to show there is much more Church teaching documented than not about the subject.  It may not benefit those who already are steeped in error but for those who are of good will, it is a way of showing the truth of what the history of the Church claims.  They can read it and research themselves.  
    Everyone has their own way, but it is easy if you or anyone else are familiar with his research can just skip it. 
    The other side, those who only have Father Feeney's misunderstands and the Diamonds teachings do their own spamming and repeating.  Don't you see it?   


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #218 on: August 10, 2017, 03:04:17 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, the +McKenna position that this was nothing more than a hyperbole to emphasize the gravity of schism ... vs. being a doctrinal definition.
    Ladislaus I suggest you bone up on the history of the Church during the time of Pope Eugene IV.
     
    Look up your favorite Catholic history book or Fr. Clement Raab, O.F.M., Twenty Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church, p, 141 and learn that, “In the midst of this jurisdictional tug-of-war Pope Eugene IV issued a decree on September 18, 1437, dissolving the Council of Basel and transferring it to a city within the PAPAL States.  Italian bishops who remained loyal to the pope flocked to the magnificent Romanesque cathedral of Ferrara where the council began its sessions on January 8, 1438.  Meanwhile, the Eastern schismatic churches sent representatives to Pope Eugene in an attempt to achieve unity.  Finally, the council would receive its raison d'etre. 
    Meanwhile, the schismatic clergy who had remained at Basel “suspended” Pope Eugene in 1438 and “deposed” him on July 25th, 1439”.
    Learn too, about Antipope Felix, then tell us there was no SCHISM for Pope Eugene to mention or warn the schismatics in the manner that he chose to see fit (1441). 

    It is always best to look and see what was going on at that time in the history of the Church, everything makes good sense when you are of good will, and earnestly seeking the truth and the why this was said, some refer to it as CONTEXT.  
    Much better than to fit the words into your own erroneous agenda.  
     

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #219 on: August 10, 2017, 03:36:36 PM »
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  • Ok, so his DOGMATIC quote references schismatics.  But it also references pagans and jews.  You act like it ONLY applies to schismatics.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #220 on: August 10, 2017, 04:57:26 PM »
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  • What are you talking about, I never said I deny EENS. 

    But your pope does.  That doesn't seem to bother those who defend his papacy, it just seems to sidestep their thinking. That is not honest.    

    Just for the record, who here denies No Salvation Outside the Church?  Except in the imagination of those who accuse falsely. 
    FYI No Salvation Outside the Church is doctrine.  


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #221 on: August 10, 2017, 05:08:13 PM »
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  • One more point, I doubt a pagan or a Jew would not be willing to shed their blood for Christ anyway, but a schismatic might.  The True Pope is giving them a warning message to those in schism of their own free will.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #222 on: August 11, 2017, 12:38:02 AM »
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  • Quote
    I personally do not know LOT.... but I think he wants to show there is much more Church teaching documented than not about the subject.
    Problem #256 with debating people online - They cannot distinguish between different types of sources.

    Myrna, just because some theologian discusses a topic doesn't mean it's church teaching. Same goes for a theologian who ends up a Saint.  Church teaching comes from papal 'de fide' pronouncements (i.e. Trent) that are binding.  Most of LOT's quotes are not church teaching, but theologian's private opinions...and are 100% able to err.

    This is infallibility 101.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #223 on: August 16, 2017, 11:08:47 AM »
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  • St. Gregory Nazianzen, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century): Oration XXXIX, Oration on the Holy Lights: "I know also a Fourth Baptism--that by Martyrdom and blood, which also Christ himself underwent; and this one is far more august than all the others, inasmuch as it cannot be defiled by after-stains."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #224 on: August 21, 2017, 12:23:23 PM »
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  • Call Our Lord a Feeneyite then.

    "Unless a man be born again of WATER and the Holy Ghost, he SHALL NOT ENTER the Kingdom of God."

    "Go forth and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."


    You people - Pious Frauds.  
    You act as if Aquinas et al. do not understand the verse.  This is either sheer dishonesty or unparalleled stupidity.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


     

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