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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 08:14:47 AM

Title: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
Those who understand EENS as the Church does which BOD helps properly interpret the following is what Catholic "BODers" do NOT believe:

1.  The EENS only applies only to those not culpably outside the Church.

2.  That supernatural faith is not always necessary for salvation.  

3.  That those outside the Church in "good faith" inculpably ignorant of her necessity and willing to to the will of God are automatically united with the Church by desire.

4.  That non-members of the Church will be judged solely on how the followed their conscience and not in regards to the necessity of faith or any other requisites.  

Stated positively, what Catholics believe in regards to BOD as it pertains to the EENS dogma is as follows:

1.  EENS applies to all outside the Church.

2.  Supernatural Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.

3.  Inculpable ignorance by itself does not save anyone.

4.  Non-members will be damned if they do not have a supernatural faith and perfect charity.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2017, 09:32:10 AM
All your double negatives make you post more confusing that it normally is.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 09:37:29 AM
All your double negatives make you post more confusing that it normally is.
It is quite easy to understand.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2017, 09:50:30 AM
If you say so.  You are well versed in the art of over complicating things.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:04:34 AM
Perhaps it that you are well versed in not understanding things.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2017, 11:25:23 AM
Quote
Stated positively, what Catholics believe in regards to BOD as it pertains to the EENS dogma is as follows:

1.  EENS applies to all outside the Church.

2.  Supernatural Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.

3.  Inculpable ignorance by itself does not save anyone.

4.  Non-members will be damned if they do not have a supernatural faith and perfect charity.
1. But most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it.

2. You can have that too, without the Church and the Sacraments.

3. No, but that usually brings one to one of the other alternative mechanisms that do.

4. True, but they can have that without knowing that they do by being "good".

That is stated positively for what modern liberal Catholics believe............
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 11, 2017, 11:33:16 AM
It is quite easy to understand. 
again:  Calls him a liar, in public, unsubstantiated, which is…?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:35:16 AM
1. But most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it.

2. You can have that too, without the Church and the Sacraments.

3. No, but that usually brings one to one of the other alternative mechanisms that do.

4. True, but they can have that without knowing that they do by being "good".

That is stated positively for what modern liberal Catholics believe............
Show me a quote where I say "Most people can somehow be a part of the Church without knowing it."
You obviously do not know how one can obtain supernatural Faith and perfect Charity apart from Baptism.

Yes baptism of blood and baptism of desire cleanses the soul of original sin but I have not heard it called an "alternative mechanism" but I guess you could call it that if you like but the preferable description would be "sanctifying grace" or "supernatural faith and perfect charity".

What you stated is ca ca nonsense.  The modern teaching came to us in the 1900's from Father Feeney.  He was corrected by the Catholic Church for that.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 11, 2017, 11:44:16 AM
So, wonder why, council of Trent(??) for example,  the SACRAMENT of Baptism is  called THE (singular) gateway(c.f. "Gates of Hell") to THE (singular) spiritual LIFE?

No, this isn't on topic."Sauce for the goose…" Too bad I can't copy/paste… (hint hi nt)
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: ryanaugustine on August 11, 2017, 11:45:21 AM
LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:45:53 AM
Or the desire thereof.  Hello?  Listen, if Liguori is not good enough for you I sure won't be.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:48:02 AM
LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.
Why would a teaching care if the uninstructed tells him he is wrong apart from being concerned for the uninstructed?  Mary sat at the feet of the Master.  You would stand up and tell him He was wrong. 

If the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes are not good enough for you I can't help you.  Maybe there are a couple of untrained layboys out there that can help.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Quote
 The modern teaching came to us in the 1900's from Father Feeney.  He was corrected by the Catholic Church for that. 
No he was not. Get you facts straight or develop enough good will to be honest.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:52:52 AM
No he was not. Get you facts straight or develop enough good will to be honest.
The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (here (http://baptismofdesire.com/feeney.html)) clearly states, 


Quote
"Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities". 

The circuмstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/Feeney-article-1953.jpg). Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: ryanaugustine on August 11, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
<<Why would a teaching care if the uninstructed tells him he is wrong apart from being concerned for the uninstructed?  Mary sat at the feet of the Master.  You would stand up and tell him He was wrong.>>

You misunderstand.  I said you are wrong about being a teacher.  I did not say your "teaching" is wrong.

But since you equate yourself with Our Lord, I can tell you that yours is not the voice of Truth.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 11, 2017, 11:56:51 AM
LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.
Now THIS was clear, very measured, very even…

… and out of all the much more viable targets THIS got a downvote, speaking of "confusing".

(@@)
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:59:39 AM
<<Why would a teaching care if the uninstructed tells him he is wrong apart from being concerned for the uninstructed?  Mary sat at the feet of the Master.  You would stand up and tell him He was wrong.>>

You misunderstand.  I said you are wrong about being a teacher.  I did not say your "teaching" is wrong.

But since you equate yourself with Our Lord, I can tell you that yours is not the voice of Truth.
I make it very clear I am not a teacher.  That is why I rely an authoritative sources that the Feeneyites despise.  After reading your first response I realize you were not being malicious.  Are you one of the charitable feeneyites?  I'm sorry for my sarcastic response.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2017, 03:26:20 PM
The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (here (http://baptismofdesire.com/feeney.html)) clearly states,


The circuмstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/Feeney-article-1953.jpg). Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
The "letter" so called was a political favor called for by Cushing because Feeney and others were exposing the heretical activities and teaching at Boston College and because Father Feeney was making converts at Harvard that were controversial.
Although the "straw that broke the camel's back" his public preaching against the Jєωs who Cushing went to great lengths to please and cater to.
He was embarrassed by these events and put the call in to his friends in Rome to have Father Feeney censured. He had influence among the Modernists and it was done.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 11, 2017, 03:51:09 PM
All your double negatives make you post more confusing that it normally is.
As regards the negative tenor of the dogma EENS....

"The negative tenor of these definitions is to warn that any word, or artifice, or attenuation, which relieves every individual of the human race from the obligation of joining the Roman Catholic Church is condemned as contrary to divine prescription." - Fr. Wathen from Who Shall Ascend?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Motorede on August 11, 2017, 05:56:11 PM
No he was not. Get you facts straight or develop enough good will to be honest.
J.Paul: It is impossible for LoT to be honest when it comes to Father Leonard Feeney; he has a blind hatred for this priest and cannot even bring himself to judge that that this priest might have been in good faith when he opined about BOD. 
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Motorede on August 11, 2017, 06:35:34 PM
J.Paul: It is impossible for LoT to be honest when it comes to Father Leonard Feeney; he has a blind hatred for this priest and cannot even bring himself to judge that that this priest might have been in good faith when he opined about BOD.
It is LoT's "Cartago delenda est"; "destroy the memory of this priest", discredit him in every way and let no one have any happy memories of him at all. What a way to make a living, LoT. 
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Merry on August 12, 2017, 03:18:51 PM
LoT ... the Monsignor ... 
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 09:08:49 AM
Correct me if I wrong, and I'm sure I'm not, but you believe that Suprema Haec Sacra is an infallible act of the Magisterium(it's not).

In Suprema Haec it says: "Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

This implies the definition of "outside" in the Dogma EENS as only those who know Christ established the Church and reject it. This is leaps and bounds more liberal than, as you put it, ALL. In fact, who would this really exclude anyway? Who truly knows that Christ established a Church that you must submit to in order to be saved and then decides to say "nah, I'm good". People who believe in their heart but do not outwardly show it, maybe could be included? The only others I can think of are former Catholics. Even most of them wouldn't count because they probably no longer believe the Church was established by Christ, therefore able to be saved by this false interpretation.

Your claim that BODers believe EENS applies to "all" outside the Church is plainly untrue if you are including yourself in that group.
I do not believe it is infallible, it is authoritative which means it is safe.  It also contains infallible teachings.  The good Catholic, including theologians give their ascent to it.  Are you aware of an authoritative docuмent with the approval of a valid pope that contained heresy?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: JPaul on August 14, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
I do not believe it is infallible, it is authoritative which means it is safe.  It also contains infallible teachings.  The good Catholic, including theologians give their ascent to it.  Are you aware of an authoritative docuмent with the approval of a valid pope that contained heresy?
According to you, It contains the kernel ideas of Vatican II, it therefore cannot be safe. Many theologians have given their ascent to Vatican II, so why do you persist in being a sedevacantist?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 09:44:40 AM
It’s the height of irony that Feeneyites have no trust at all in the very Church outside of which they insist there is no salvation! Listening to them, you’d think there is no salvation INSIDE the Church!
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
According to you, It contains the kernel ideas of Vatican II, it therefore cannot be safe. Many theologians have given their ascent to Vatican II, so why do you persist in being a sedevacantist?
"according to me" what?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 14, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
It’s the height of irony that Feeneyites have no trust at all in the very Church outside of which they insist there is no salvation! Listening to them, you’d think there is no salvation INSIDE the Church!
"… every idle word…"
You'll put you soul out with that thing.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 11:08:05 AM
I think Feneyites ultimately have no Faith at all, many of them. They just adhere to a bunch of propositions behind which there is no reality. It’s just words and they adhere to the words.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 14, 2017, 11:25:47 AM
I think Feneyites ultimately have no Faith at all, many of them. They just adhere to a bunch of propositions behind which there is no reality. It’s just words and they adhere to the words.
"… it's just words…"

And there it is, from the maestro squared away, c/p the library of congress = "AHA! AH WEEN!" lover of tripe himself.


*golfclap
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 11:37:33 AM
"… it's just words…"

And there it is, from the maestro squared away, c/p the library of congress = "AHA! AH WEEN!" lover of tripe himself.


*golfclap
They adhere to words which they do not understand or take in context within the whole of Catholic teaching.  Feeneyites are to Catholic Dogma what Protestants are to the Bible.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 14, 2017, 11:53:29 AM
They adhere to words which they do not understand or take in context within the whole of Catholic teaching.  Feeneyites are to Catholic Dogma what Protestants are to the Bible.
See my prior
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 14, 2017, 01:41:24 PM
Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 14, 2017, 04:55:38 PM
Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and [If anyone shall say] that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
May as well put the emphasis on where it needs to be for the lover of liberalism.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 14, 2017, 09:26:41 PM
LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.

Teaching doctrine is like constructing a house, the final product, the purpose, is a house one can safely live in. LOT's, "doctrine" house would look like this:

(http://cdn.instantshift.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/sba-01.jpg)

Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 15, 2017, 03:10:51 AM
Teaching doctrine is like constructing a house, the final product, the purpose, is a house one can safely live in. LOT's, "doctrine" house would look like this:

(http://cdn.instantshift.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/sba-01.jpg)
…which he would take as miraculous mandate instead of the rhetorical and sophistic sorcery that it more closely resembles, that and pig one's wolf-blown shack.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 15, 2017, 06:57:09 AM

Quote
Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
Getting a feeneyite to accept Catholic teaching is like getting Satan to be good.  It doesn't work.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2017, 07:10:30 AM
May as well put the emphasis on where it needs to be for the lover of liberalism.
Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and [If anyone shall say] that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 15, 2017, 07:12:22 AM
I accept the whole quote.  You do not.

Council of Trent (16th century)Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

 Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them orwithout the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2017, 07:14:38 AM
No, you do not. You say that no sacrament is necessary, per St. Alphonsus, you are a heretic. 

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - St. Alphonsus
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 15, 2017, 07:30:38 AM
No, you do not. You say that no sacrament is necessary, per St. Alphonsus, you are a heretic. 

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - St. Alphonsus
Maybe that's a preceptive "all"… (@@)
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 15, 2017, 07:42:16 AM
No, you do not. You say that no sacrament is necessary, per St. Alphonsus, you are a heretic.  

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - St. Alphonsus
You lie.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2017, 07:59:17 AM
You lie.
No, you are a heretic because, as St. Alphonsus says, "only the heretic says that no sacrament is necessary" - and Lord knows you have like 6900 posts proclaiming exactly that.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 15, 2017, 08:05:24 AM
No, you are a heretic because, as St. Alphonsus says, "only the heretic says that no sacrament is necessary" - and Lord knows you have like 6900 posts proclaiming exactly that.

Quote
St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" (Note: Unbelievers can see the original book in Latin here (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/alphonse_theologia_moralis_5.pdf). Turn to page 310 in the book (or page 157 of the PDF file).

 Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
That is what Alphonsus says.  That is what you reject. That is why YOU are a heretic.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2017, 08:07:28 AM
That is what Alphonsus says.  That is what you reject. That is why YOU are a heretic.
Nope, I posted what St. Alphonsus taught. "Only the heretic says that no sacrament is necessary".

His teaching comes directly from: An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 15, 2017, 08:17:37 AM
I posted what he taught and what you clearly reject.  You will have to answer for spreading false teaching and misrepresenting sainted doctors of the Church.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 15, 2017, 08:31:20 AM
I posted what he taught and what you clearly reject, I even told you where you can find it.  You will have to answer for spreading false teaching, rejecting the doctrine of Divine Providence, EENS and etc. ad nausem and misrepresenting sainted doctors of the Church.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 16, 2017, 11:08:01 AM
More false teaching according to Stubborn:

Rufinus, Church Father (4th Century): A Commentary on the Apostles' Creed: "It is written that when the side of Jesus was pierced "He shed thereout blood and water." This has a mystical meaning. For Himself had said, "Out of His belly shall flow rivers of living water." But He shed forth blood also, of which the Jєωs sought that it might be upon themselves and upon their children. He shed forth water, therefore, which might wash believers; He shed forth blood also which might condemn unbelievers. Yet it might be understood also as prefiguring the twofold grace of baptism, one that which is given by the baptism of water, the other that which is sought through martyrdom in the outpouring of blood, for both are called baptism." 
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2017, 11:40:12 AM
^^^^More posting of behind the times news.

You must be entirely ignorant of the fact that 12 centuries after your above article, Trent infallibly defined, binding us all forever the infallible canon decreeing that the sacrament is necessary for salvation, and a century after that, St. Alphonsus echoed Trent's teachings that only heretics say that no sacrament is necessary.



Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 16, 2017, 11:45:08 AM
^^^^More posting of behind the times news.

You must be entirely ignorant of the fact that 12 centuries after your above article, Trent infallibly defined, binding us all forever the infallible canon decreeing that the sacrament is necessary for salvation, and a century after that, St. Alphonsus echoed Trent's teachings that only heretics say that no sacrament is necessary.
Saint Alphonsus based his teaching on BOD being de fide upon Trent.  The brainwashing you have undergone has made you sufficiently blind.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 16, 2017, 12:00:28 PM
Getting a feeneyite to accept Catholic teaching is like getting Satan to be good.  It doesn't work. 
Good. You can shut up now. Mission scrubbed.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 16, 2017, 12:02:03 PM
St. Fulgentius (6th Century): Enchiridion Patristicuм 2269: "From the time when Our Saviour said 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,' without the sacrament of baptism, apart from those who pour forth their blood for Christ in the Catholic Church without baptism, no one can receive the kingdom of Heaven, nor eternal life."
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
Saint Alphonsus based his teaching on BOD being de fide upon Trent.  The brainwashing you have undergone has made you sufficiently blind.  
Unlike you, I was born, raised and have remained in the True Catholic Church my whole life, so my "brainwashing" is of the True Catholic faith.

You, OTOH, being born and raised in the anti-church, have been brainwashed with anti-church thinking, faith, sentiments and actions. That's the way it is.

Can we at least agree on that?
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 16, 2017, 01:42:12 PM
Unlike you, I was born, raised and have remained in the True Catholic Church my whole life, so my "brainwashing" is of the True Catholic faith.

You, OTOH, being born and raised in the anti-church, have been brainwashed with anti-church thinking, faith, sentiments and actions. That's the way it is.

Can we at least agree on that?
Each time you are refuted you switch to another topic.  Why not have the humility to accept the truth that BOD does not contradict EENS but compliments it.  
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2017, 02:11:47 PM
Each time you are refuted you switch to another topic.  Why not have the humility to accept the truth that BOD does not contradict EENS but compliments it.  
A BOD, which is not a sacrament, it is "justification by faith (or sincerity or desire or who knows?)" alone", has been condemned by the Trent. St. Alphonsus teaches only heretics say that a BOD suffices for justification.

I have told you this over and over again - you reject the truth and by now, you must know you reject the truth, so it is painfully obvious that you gave yourself a deceptive moniker, you don't love the truth.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 16, 2017, 02:14:53 PM
A BOD, which is not a sacrament, it is "justification by faith (or sincerity or desire or who knows?)" alone", has been condemned by the Trent. St. Alphonsus teaches only heretics say that a BOD suffices for justification.

I have told you this over and over again - you reject the truth and by now, you must know you reject the truth, so it is painfully obvious that you gave yourself a deceptive moniker, you don't love the truth.
I know it is not a sacrament but it has not been condemned by Saint Alphonsus.  He declared it de fide based upon Trent.  You are unable or unwilling to see that BOD does not contradict EENS but compliments it.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2017, 03:00:43 PM
I know it is not a sacrament but it has not been condemned by Saint Alphonsus.  He declared it de fide based upon Trent.  You are unable or unwilling to see that BOD does not contradict EENS but compliments it.
If you know it's not a sacrament, and you know Trent condemned anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation, then you know a BOD without the sacrament cannot save anyone because it is not a sacrament.

Further, St. Alphonsus echoed Trent when he said that heretics say the sacraments are not necessary, then you know you are condemned by Trent for claiming a BOD saves without the sacrament and a heretic per St. Alphonsus for saying a person without the sacrament can still attain salvation via a BOD.

Either way, Trent is the Church, St. Alphonsus is not the Church, he made a mistake, the Church did not, he demonstrated that he submitted to the judgement of the Church when he finally taught: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone". Faith alone" = a BOD.
Title: Re: What BODers do NOT Believe
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:25:59 PM
AGAIN.  If you allow yourself to accept Catholic teaching you accept that water baptism is not necessary with an intrinsic necessity.  God does not insist on the impossible.  It is a necessity of precept and a necessity of relative means.  This means apart from sacramental baptism or its replacements no one can be saved.  This infallible teaching is not so hard to grasp and must be accepted even if you cannot grasp it.