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Author Topic: What's with the Dimond brothers?  (Read 18659 times)

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2018, 05:57:38 PM »
How can a muslim be saved?
I don't believe in BOD. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2018, 06:41:30 PM »
I mean that people who believe it believe that the Church teaches it, and indeed many clergy and even Popes have believed in BOD.

Yeah, but no Doctor or Church Father or Pope ever taught a form of BoD that would allow infidels to be saved.    They believed in BoD as efficacious only for those who were Catholic in every other way except for the in re reception of the Sacrament.  That's the distinction I always make.

If someone believes in BoD as St. Thomas did, I personally would not even characterize that as an "error".  I would disagree and think it a mistaken piece of speculative theology.


Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2018, 07:26:49 PM »
Yeah, but no Doctor or Church Father or Pope ever taught a form of BoD that would allow infidels to be saved.    They believed in BoD as efficacious only for those who were Catholic in every other way except for the in re reception of the Sacrament.  That's the distinction I always make.

If someone believes in BoD as St. Thomas did, I personally would not even characterize that as an "error".  I would disagree and think it a mistaken piece of speculative theology.
By their approval of beliefs that allowed people outside of the Church to be saved, they opened the gates for modern clergymen to fling open the gates to all infidels. Now we're stuck with the V2 Popes saying "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic". 

The belief that Jews, Muslims, etc. can be saved is certainly heresy, but the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases. 

Offline trad123

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2018, 07:30:44 PM »
the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases.

/thread

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What's with the Dimond brothers?
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2018, 07:44:31 PM »
By their approval of beliefs that allowed people outside of the Church to be saved, they opened the gates for modern clergymen to fling open the gates to all infidels. Now we're stuck with the V2 Popes saying "It doesn't matter if one is Catholic".

The belief that Jews, Muslims, etc. can be saved is certainly heresy, but the failure of pre-V2 Popes to condemn it while it was running rampant among the clergy, and the support given to it by post-V2 Popes, means that a Catholic who believes it probably thinks that's what the Church teaches. So it probably isn't a formal heresy in most cases.

That's always hard to say.  Lots of people RATIONALIZE things to themselves because it's what they WANT to  believe, whereas if they had sincerely sought the truth with a good will and with docility to the Holy Spirit, they would have been led to the truth.  Only God can sort them out.  What I objected to was your choice of words that it's "at the most" material heresy.  At the most it's formal heresy.  What you meant is that in most cases you think it's probably only material.  But I see that as not my problem to figure out ... leave that to God.  I will just continue pointing out that it's heresy.