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Poll

Do You Believe It Likely That Siri Was Ever Pope

No
He was elected but never accepted the office
Yes, for a few minutes until a couple of weeks
Yes, until he went along with tthe Novus Ordo changes
Yes, until his death
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Author Topic: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?  (Read 10190 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2019, 11:21:09 AM »
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    • From a lay-person:

    One might as well ask if the Church should have granted King Henry VIII an annulment from Catherine of Aragon. Maybe that would have “saved” England (and I doubt that), but it would have had catastrophic effects. It is never proper to ask whether something might be of some advantage or disadvantage, but simply whether it was right or wrong.
     
    As far as Siri however, a papal electee has the right to refuse the election, forcing the cardinals to go back in for another go at electing a pope. And surely he had every confidence that the Holy Ghost would prevent whoever became pope from being a heretic, even if ill willed.
     
    The Siri hypothesis has no validity unless it can be shown that Siri did not step down or aside or whatever and accept someone else elected after him as pope. Since he did, that of itself can be rightly construed as a resignation from the papacy (assuming he had got it in the first place). This is the same basis that it can be said that Pope Martin I resigned the papacy inasmuch as he accepted the decisions of Pope St. Eugenius who came after him. Only if he held on to the papal election he supposedly might have received, and endeavored to rule the Church (at least secretly) could those elected after him while he was alive and still reigning (however secretly) as Pope be regarded as antipopes, and as such not under the protection of the Holy Ghost.
     
    If a pope were told he must uphold a heresy or else Rome would be blown up, he still has no choice but to let Rome be blown up rather than accept to uphold a heresy.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #31 on: December 06, 2019, 11:23:24 AM »
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    • I find it interesting how our clergy are united on the feeney issue as well as this.  The person who I admire very much and am trying to help for good reason does not trust me on such issues, but I suppose our good priests might influence if anyone can.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #32 on: December 06, 2019, 11:46:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on December 06, 2019, 11:23:24 AM
    I find it interesting how our clergy are united on the feeney issue
    That is news to me :confused:
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    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #33 on: December 06, 2019, 12:01:14 PM »
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    • But not news to those who know the facts.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #34 on: December 06, 2019, 12:10:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on December 06, 2019, 11:23:24 AM
    I find it interesting how our clergy are united on the feeney issue as well as this.

    By "our" clergy, you undoubtedly mean the CMRI clergy.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #35 on: December 06, 2019, 12:39:08 PM »
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    • Response #6 from Priest:          

    Cardinal Siri never accepted the office of the papacy, never acted like a pope or had others honor him as a pope.  I don't believe those who claim he was a pope. There is no evidence for this.
     
     Siri followed the Vatican II changes like Modernists, offered the New Mass and New Sacraments and went along with many Modernists beliefs at Vatican II.

    ___
    Here is more fodder for you to trash me Ladislaus, if that is what gets you off.  I'm beginning to doubt he accepted the office.  And am now open to the idea that he was a part of the whole undermining of the Church.  He sure seemed comfortable schmoozing with the apostate heretics and offering "mass" with them.  If anyone can address the issue apart from personal attacks I'm available to listen.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #36 on: December 06, 2019, 12:56:05 PM »
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    • It's not that complicated:  Siri was elected, he accepted, chose a name and white smoke went from the chimney.  Then Siri was taken aside, and he was threatened somehow, so he came back to the main room and publically said he could not accept.  That's why a few minutes later, black smoke issued from the chimney.  Thus, he did resign, but under duress.
    .
    An FBI agent, who was part of a team monitoring many of the Cardinals for Communist activities, said that the election was tampered with and Siri was threatened.  At least that is the rumor.
    .
    What is not a rumor is the white smoke, which NO ONE, to this day, has EVER had a proper explanation for.  It is rumored that Siri chose a name and he has made cryptic comments which suggest that his stepping aside is his greatest regret and that he feared for God's judgment for his actions.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #37 on: December 06, 2019, 01:07:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on December 06, 2019, 08:01:26 AM
    When did I speak of them saying they insisted it happened?  I'm not going to re-read my article but if there is a quote that makes it seem like I did that I will recant.  Very gladly.  It seems like you are a Siri ideologue.  I'm sorry for bursting your precious bubble.  My problem is the mere suggestion that God can inspire one to do evil. This is impossible but the individual who I have talked to privately is refusing to accept that.  It is dishonest to treat the Siri thing like a dogma.  And misguided to believe he stayed Pope until he died.  And unimaginable, I would have thought, for Catholic to think it was better for him or even good of him to shirk his duty as pope before God an men rather than do what popes are supposed do.  Like for the first 3 centuries for instance.  And ever since when necessary.

    Answer the question.  Can God inspire evil?  Be honest.
    No, God can't inspire evil but allows it for a greater good. But THIS is totally different. If you have a problem here, it's not with the Siri thesis, its with the two podcast speakers who discussed this POSSIBILITY as one of many as to why Siri didn't wind up on the visable Throne of Peter
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #38 on: December 06, 2019, 01:26:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on December 06, 2019, 11:21:09 AM
    From a lay-peson:
     
    If a pope were told he must uphold a heresy or else Rome would be blown up, he still has no choice but to let Rome be blown up rather than accept to uphold a heresy.
    The whole "Rome will be blown up" statement is also just speculation, people assuming that it is the worse thing that can happen. It could have been a much greater threat than that- maybe it had to do with the loss of millions of souls to hell? ( just speculation). Maybe Siri thought the threat superceded his elevation to the office. I'm not saying it's right,  but who can understand the gravity of the position he was in? He may have failed, but the monumental decision he had to make in a matter of seconds must be considered. We have never had a valid but failed Pope? 
    I have never had the weight of Heaven, hell and earth on my shoulders balancing on a 10 minute decision that I had to make under satanic threats of extreme gravity.  In any case, he lived with this decision the rest of his tortured life.
    The lay person above just confirmed that all popes since JohnXXlll were antipopes.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #39 on: December 06, 2019, 01:28:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on December 06, 2019, 01:07:26 PM
    No, God can't inspire evil but allows it for a greater good. But THIS is totally different. If you have a problem here, it's not with the Siri thesis, its with the two podcast speakers who discussed this POSSIBILITY as one of many as to why Siri didn't wind up on the visable Throne of Peter
    I guess that is an admittal that you incorrectly or falsely accused me of claiming they insisted this is the case. 

    Actually it isn't. 

    It is not with the speakers but what was spoken.  Words which conveyed that God good willing inspire evil.  He cannot.  I think it is important for people with a large audience to be able to accept that.  It is basic theology.  I am also now having a problem with the theory itself.  Why are YOU having a problem with an objection to that "possibility"?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #40 on: December 06, 2019, 01:30:19 PM »
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    • P- LoT, why are you so pitussed over a SUGGESTION anyway?
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #41 on: December 06, 2019, 01:33:42 PM »
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    • This was my response to one entrenched in Sirinism that was quite civil:

    It is an honor to speak with you and God bless your devotion.  May God reward you.  I'm not sure you realize how refreshing a civilized response to my queries are to me.  I thank you for your courtesy.  I used to think that is how all Catholics were supposed to act but I guess that changed as well as everything else.  

    I would like to answer in detail at some point.  There was not much that jumped out at me right away that I could disagree with apart from the bit about not judging.  Perhaps the following article will be of use to you:

    https://romeward.com/articles/239752647/can-a-private-individual-recognize-an-uncondemned-heretic

    Also from Novus Ordo Watch:

    The principle exempting the Pope from all judgment, therefore, applies to all valid holders of the papal office only, and it has no bearing whatsoever on what is a completely different question altogether, namely, how to ascertain whether a particular individual’s claim to be the Pope is true or not. This latter issue is, of course, of the utmost importance, especially considering the nature and function of the papacy, but we will leave its in-depth discussion for a future blog post.

    The only other thing was the ignoring of docuмented evidence.  Your saying we do not have to accept it because they could be doctored or because of the source is a double-edged sword.  I could say the same thing about anything you claim that I believe or know to be false.  Also, the fact that he offered the new mass, and acknowledged the apostates as popes is common knowledge and not disputed.

    I could tell a pro-lifer that I don't think the blob of tissue in the mother's womb is a person because I don't like the sources who tells me it is and believe the sonograms are doctored.  So I won't even have discussion with someone who doesn't accept proof.  

    Some of the Siri ideologues are incapable of a dispassionate discussion on the issue.  They seem to think we must have a pope no matter how we get one and the heck if he claims not to be pope, acknowledges others as pope and offers the abominable new mess.  

    If you claim he is not a pertinacious heretic well you can say the same thing about the Lutherans.  But in Siri's case we are not to presume ignorance where such ignorance would constitute a dereliction of duty.

    I see no reason to draw any distinction between Siri and the other Modernists in that regard. We have to go by what is outwardly apparent.  At the end of the day these people are not professing Roman Catholicism.  Sirinism gets us nowhere apart from maybe, if true, explain how we got to where we are.  What did "pope" Siri do for the Church from 1958 - 1989?  I don’t see what this gives us other than having a Pope who to all appearances wasn’t Pope and didn’t act like a Pope and basically participated in the same auto-destruction as all the rest. What does this solve?

    Many including Gary, I think, until recently thought having the office being in tact in perpetuity as meaning we must always have a pope apart from short interregnums.

    Well that’s fine but it would be easier to just say the current claimants are popes then?  Just use all the excuses for Siri and apply them to the other novus ordo popes. Fair’s fair. Ockham’s razor - no need to multiply explanations if a simple one will do.  It would be MUCH more reasonable, I think, to simply say that a true Pope was elected, we don’t know who, and he went into hiding and passed on the succession.  Popes in exile are possible and that has happened in the past. But this idea that the Pope can be Pope and yet act like a heretic and deny he is Pope, that’s absurd.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #42 on: December 06, 2019, 01:35:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on December 06, 2019, 01:30:19 PM
    P- LoT, why are you so pitussed over a SUGGESTION anyway?
    The suggestion suggests God could willing inspire evil?  Should all the listeners believe that and cop out themselves when they have a difficult choice?  Why do you save Siri at the cost of the papacy?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #43 on: December 06, 2019, 01:37:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on December 06, 2019, 01:35:02 PM
    The suggestion suggests God could willing inspire evil?  Should all the listeners believe that and cop out themselves when they have a difficult choice?  Why do you save Siri at the cost of the papacy?
    Sadly, Matthew put this in the wrong section because roscoe made this into a feeneyite issue.  This is a Siri and a God discussion.  That feeney was mentioned was inadvertent.

    I was hoping to get feed back from some Catholics but instead I'm probably dealing with feeneyites.   
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #44 on: December 06, 2019, 01:38:06 PM »
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    • "It is not with the speakers but what was spoken.  Words which conveyed that God good willing inspire evil.  He cannot.  I think it is important for people with a large audience to be able to accept that.  It is basic theology.  I am also now having a problem with the theory itself.  Why are YOU having a problem with an objection to that "possibility"?"


    What kind of BS is this statement? It's NOT the speakers that spoke the statement, but the   nebulous words themselves hanging in the air that you are so upset with?Are they not responsible for their own words?
    There are just so many hair-splittings that can happen before it all turns into intelectualized nonsense.
    Good luck

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