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Poll

Do you agree with St. Augustine that God will infallibly provide the Sacrament of Baptism to those who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of justification?

Yes
5 (71.4%)
No
2 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: St. Augustine on BoD  (Read 1023 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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St. Augustine on BoD
« on: February 19, 2021, 07:44:01 AM »
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  • Proponents of BoD often cite Pope Innocent III (or II, depending on which attribution you believe) as stating that the opinions of the Fathers must be followed on this subject.

    Proponents of BoD then promote St. Augustine's authority as proving Baptism of Desire.

    But St. Augustine taught that God will not allow any of His elect to die without the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Do you agree with St. Augustine on this point?

    It's hypocritical to promote his authority when early in his life he opined in favor of Baptism of Desire but then reject it with regard to this later opinion, is it not?

    It's similar to how people cite St. Thomas in favor of BoD but then reject the teaching of the very same St. Thomas when he holds that explicit belief and the Incarnation and Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.

    This hypocrisy generally exposes the BoDers who are of bad will on this issue.  They puff up the authorities which agree with their position, but then feel free to ignore those same authorities where they do not agree with them.  They try to beat their opponents over the head with the "authority" of St. Thomas but then ignore this same authority when it doesn't suit them.

    When you see that kind of behavior, know that you are not dealing with someone who is intellectually honest, but someone who is applying confirmation bias to all the evidence based on what they want to believe.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #1 on: February 19, 2021, 07:59:52 AM »
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  • From the very beginning, the first question one should ask when someone brings up the subject of BOD is: Do you limit your belief in BOD to the harmless catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas? And follow it up with:  Are you a believer in salvation by implicit faith in a God that rewards?

    If they answer that they limit it to St. Thomas, I just end the conversation there. No point in debating a harmless theory.

    It is rare to find a BOD thread opener that limits his belief to the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #2 on: February 19, 2021, 08:08:37 AM »
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  • LastTrad, while of course I agree with you, let's try to keep these threads on topic.

    We're discussing the teaching of St. Augustine that God will not allow anyone to persevere to the end of life in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Here the BoDer hypocrisy being exposed is in holding that we must follow St. Augustine on BoD but then rejecting his teaching that God will infallibly provide the Sacrament to all of His elect.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #3 on: February 19, 2021, 09:26:50 AM »
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  • So St. Augustine taught that it can never happen that God will allow someone to persevere to the end of life in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament of Baptism.  You could argue that this is a consideration from actual reality.

    What would happen to a soul if the soul were to HYPOTHETICALLY die in a state of justification without having received the Sacrament?

    While maintaining that it simply does not happen, Fr. Feeney when forced to address the hypothetical answered, simply, "I don't know."

    I go a bit further.  In such a hypothetical scenario, the soul would enter into what had been known as the "Limbo of the Fathers," a state where there were justified souls who yet were not admitted to the beatific vision.  But I hold that this Limbo of the Fathers, while being a hypothetical possibility (and a very real one since it did actually exist for a time), is not currently inhabited or populated because, following the teaching of St. Augustine, God does not allow souls to persevere in justification without providing the Sacrament.  If this is not the case, then I hold that this Limbo of the Justified is in fact currently inhabited by the souls of the un-baptized justified.  Limbo of the Infants has the souls of those innocent who are not in fact justified.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #4 on: February 19, 2021, 10:16:40 AM »
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  • My questions on this subject: (1) Can anyone find a post Innocent III Theology Manual that says BOD is still an open question? (2) Can anyone find a Church Doctor in the last millenium who says St. Augustine's opinion on BOD is still valid/has not been ruled against? It would be good if we could find such a source, we could all gain greater clarity.

    Now, regarding the Papal endorsement of St. Augustine's opinion in the period when he taught BOD, it can be argued that the Pope may not necessarily have agreed with everything St. Augustine said, but approved a particular opinion within his writings. By way of analogy, when the Popes approved St. Athanasius' Creed, they didn't approve everything he ever wrote, however orthodox all those writings may be. They did endorse that particular Creed he composed, especially at Florence.

    So I would see it as the same here. Like Pope Eugene IV approved the Athanasian Creed, but not every writing of St. Athanasius, so imo, maybe the Pope approved only those two particular quotations that he made, not everything else in St. Augustine or St. Ambrose: ""We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written: 'Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.' Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the 'priest' mentioned."

    Now, personally I feel even the above statement quoted from St. Augustine does not absolutely exclude a miraculous Water Baptism. If someone wants to believe in Miraculous (Invisible) Water Baptism (MWB) theory, he can.

    But I would appreciate seeing a source, from a Doctor after the Church issued this, or a theology manual post Trent, that says the question is still open to dispute, further clarification being required from the Magisterium etc.

    Edit: Another thing comes to mind. St. Augustine once taught little infants will suffer the fire of hell. Obviously the Church did not endorse that opinion. Also, in the Middle Ages, that opinion was ruled against - I forgot by which Pope. But some Pope said the only pain infants suffer, following St. Thomas was the privation of the vision of God, what we now call Limbo. I'll look that up later. But the analogy here is clear. A Catholic must show (1) St. Augustine taught something AND (2) the Church still authorizes it to be taught/did not ever rule against it.

    God Bless.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 11:31:03 AM »
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  • There is no option for those who believe that justification prior to the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism is impossible.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #6 on: February 19, 2021, 11:45:16 AM »
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  • Now, regarding the Papal endorsement of St. Augustine's opinion in the period when he taught BOD, it can be argued that the Pope may not necessarily have agreed with everything St. Augustine said, but approved a particular opinion within his writings. By way of analogy, when the Popes approved St. Athanasius' Creed, they didn't approve everything he ever wrote, however orthodox all those writings may be. They did endorse that particular Creed he composed, especially at Florence.

    So I cut out the stuff that was drifting off topic.  Here above is your response, that the Pope was endorsing this particular opinion only.

    But here's what the Pope (Innocent II) actually wrote:
    Quote
    We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy fathers Augustine and Ambrose) 

    Here we have the Pope basing his "assertion" on the "authority of ... .Augustine".  Notice that he's not teaching but merely asserting, and then he's basing this assertion on the authority of St. Augustine.  This sounds like he's acting like a private theologian or doctor rather than as a teacher of the Church.

    As you point out, the authority of St. Augustine is limited.  Some of his opinions, as you point out, were later overturned by the Church.  Others he himself changed his mind on ... not only about BoD, but he published an entire BOOK called "Corrections" later in life.

    Of course, St. Augustine never taught BoD with any "authority".  He said that he had gone back and forth on the question and then "found" that there's such a thing as BoD.  He never taught this, never claimed that he was passing on Tradition or teaching it.  He was clearly speculating.

    So Innocent II wrongly asserts that this position is based on some authoritative teaching of Augustine.

    But you answer correctly that not every opinion of Augustine has authority or weight.  He wrote thousands upon thousands of pages.  Some of his opinions have subsequently been rejected by the Church.

    There's no "authority of Augustine" behind the BoD assertion, and Innocent II is mistaken here in this letter, just as Innocent III was mistaken regarding transubstantiation.

    On a separate thread we can talk about how St. Bernard did the same thing, agreed tentatively with BoD, saying he would "rather err with Augustine than" [be right on his own].  Well, had he sided with Augustine regarding the fate of unbaptized infants, he would indeed have "err[ed] with Augustine".  There was a time that there was such overemphasis on Augustine that the Church felt the need to condemn the proposition that one could go with Augustine over the Magisterium.

    St. Augustine is just one fallible Church Father.  Other Church Fathers explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire.  THAT is the point here.  Let's try to avoid engaging on confirmation bias, where we puff up the authority of those that agree with us while ignoring and filtering out evidence to the contrary.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #7 on: February 19, 2021, 11:48:15 AM »
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  • There is no option for those who believe that justification prior to the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism is impossible.

    Right.  That should probably be a separate poll question, whether someone believes that pre-Baptismal justification is possible.  It would be an interesting thread discussion among those who do not believe in Baptism of Desire.  I hold that it is possible ... an puts a soul into a similar state as the OT just, such as St. Joseph or St. John the Baptist.  I'll start a thread on that, perhaps asking to limit the discussion to those who do not believe in BoD.

    Really the point of this question was to clarify whether people who uphold St. Augustine as an authority behind BOD continue to uphold his authority with some of his other opinions, i.e. whether they're consistent.  It's just like those who cite St. Thomas as an authority for BoD but then hypocritically refuse to cede to that same authority that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity is necessary for justification.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #8 on: February 19, 2021, 12:26:45 PM »
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  • I don't agree with St Augustine here and as far as I can tell his position isn't the consensus patrum. 

    That said I don't think I'd argue the point in the same way many BODers would (ie. I wouldn't cite a singular church father as a sufficient authority on any subject

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 12:41:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    Do you agree with St. Augustine that God will infallibly provide the Sacrament of Baptism to those who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of justification?


    Where did St. Augustine say that?  Please provide the quote.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 05:24:06 PM »
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  • bump


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 06:15:52 PM »
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  • Where did St. Augustine say that?  Please provide the quote.

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Everyone should read this terrific article.
    Quote
    “[Augustine] [pages 466-467] would even go so far as to say that since the time of Christ there has not been one predestined person who has not received baptism before his death: Absit enim, ut praedestinatus ad vitam sine sacramento mediatoris finire permittatur hanc vitam (Aug. c. Julianum. 5, 4, 14) [Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator]; to wish to assume that people whom God has predestined, could be whisked off by death before being baptized amounts to setting a power over God which prevents him from carrying out what he had intended. An eos et ipse praedestinat baptizari et ipse quod praedestinavit non sinit fieri? (Aug. de nat. et orig. an. 2, 9, 13). [Is it possible that (God) himself predestines people to be baptized and then he himself does not allow to happen what he has predestined?]

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 07:04:40 PM »
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  • https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Everyone should read this terrific article.
    There is no quote from St. Augustine in the article that says "God will infallibly provide the Sacrament of Baptism to those who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of justification". St. Augustine said nothing about "people who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of pre-baptismal justification". He said nothing about being in a state of justification before baptism, not for one second or to "persevere" for years in a state of "pre-baptsmal" justification.

    All St. Augustine said was that  they whom the Lord has predestinated for the sacrament of baptism cannot be snatched away from his predestination, or die by "accident" before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined. 


    Quote
    St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 08:17:13 PM »
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  • There is no quote from St. Augustine in the article that says "God will infallibly provide the Sacrament of Baptism to those who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of justification". St. Augustine said nothing about "people who persevere to the end of their lives in a state of pre-baptismal justification".

    LastTrad, you're confusing this with the other thread.  This thread is directed at those who hold that St. Augustine's authority proves BoD (all of whom believe in pre-Baptismal justification) ... and thus Xavier's response above.  This thread was not attempted to demonstrate the existence of pre-Baptismal justification, but merely conceding its existence for the sake of argument.

    In other words:  “there’s no such thing as dying in a state of grace without Baptism”.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: St. Augustine on BoD
    « Reply #14 on: February 19, 2021, 08:37:16 PM »
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  • https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Everyone should read this terrific article.


    I had wondered why St. Cyprian denied the validity of baptisms performed outside the Church, but I didn't know he was corrected on the matter.



    Quote
    From the time of Saint Augustine to that of Saint Bernard (+1153) in the twelfth century, I could discover no doctor of the Church who affirmed a belief in baptism of desire. Father Pfeiffer asserts in his article that there are “a host of other saints and Doctors before and after Aquinas,” who taught baptism of desire. “After Aquinas?” Granted. “Before?” With Augustine’s recantation (full text supplied later on), I do not know of any, other than Saint Bernard.

    Rev. Father Jean Marc Rulleau in his booklet, Baptism of Desire: A Patristic Commentary, attempts to defend the same point as Father Pfeiffer concerning the fathers’ approval of baptism of desire, but he provides only the flimsiest of evidence from the fathers. He maintains that Saint Cyprian (+258) believed in baptism of desire — not for catechumens (Cyprian does not raise that question), but for those converts who he thought were invalidly baptized in a heretical sect. The question Cyprian raised was this: if they converted and were received into the Church without being re-baptized, could they be saved? He believed that they could be saved.

    I agree with Father Rulleau that this opinion could be translated into a baptism of desire. In any event, the historical fact is that Saint Cyprian refused to accept Pope Stephen’s correction (including the threat of excommunication in case of non-compliance) of his teaching concerning the invalidity of baptisms in heretical sects that used the correct matter and form. He even summoned a council at Carthage in 256 to gather the support of a synod of African bishops. The decision of that council, to which Cyprian acquiesced, was that the question of re-baptizing converted heretics was a disciplinary issue reserved for the local bishop. In this, he had what appears to be the support of the eastern Catholic bishops whom he had also solicited. In a letter he wrote to one Jubaianus, the bishop of Carthage explained that he makes no laws for others, but retains his own liberty. (Epp. lxx, lxxi, lxxii) Then, again, in a later letter to one Pompeius, to whom he sent his work, De Bono Patientiae, he is virulent in his attack on Pope’s Stephen’s orthodoxy. Pompeius had asked for a copy of Stephen’s decree. “As you read it,” Cyprian writes, “you will note his error more and more clearly: in approving the baptism of all the heresies, he has heaped into his own breast the sins of all of them; a fine tradition indeed! What blindness of mind, what depravity!” (See New Advent’s 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia on Saint Cyprian.)  In the end, after the martyrdom of Saint Cyprian and under the pontificate of Pope Sixtus II, the Church in Carthage fell in line with the pope.

    Point being: If the Bishop of Carthage was wrong on the bigger question, speaking and writing in ignorant opposition to the apostolic tradition (and, be it noted, following the opinion of the heretic Tertullian on the subject) and questioning the pope’s authority, are we to hold that he was correctly handing on traditional teaching on a subsidiary issue related to the original error? Reading the insulting language Cyprian employs against the pope in his letter to Pompeius one can understand why Saint Augustine, with great respect and prudence, would say over a century later, in his treatise De Baptismo, that Bishop Cyprian had atoned for his “excess” by his martyrdom.

    Father Francois Laisney, in a letter written to me in 1999 on this issue, labored much to convince me that Saint Cyprian favored baptism of desire. Regarding those converted heretics who were received back into the Church by the western bishops and the head of the Church himself without being rebaptized, he proved his point. But these converts were in a different category than catechumens — after all, they were accepted as members of the Church by the pope, and Cyprian himself, at least in council, was not denying the pope the right to admit these converts without rebaptizing them. Remember, in the previously-cited letter to Jubaianus he was arguing that this decision should be left to each individual bishop. His contention, therefore, if one looks at the logic of the actual argument and not his excessive vitriol, was not that the “deposit of faith” was being compromised by Pope Stephen, but that, for certainty sake, when the validity of heretical baptisms was questionable (as it was in his mind) the matter fell to one of discipline. To quote Saint Cyprian: “God is powerful in His mercy to give forgiveness also to those who were admitted into the Church in simplicity [of heart] and who died in the Church and not to separate them from the gifts of the Church” (Letter to Jubaianus, n. 23, Patrologia Latina 3, 1125). I put the emphasis on “died in the Church” to prove my point. If Saint Cyprian definitely believed that the Faith itself was being compromised, and that to accept the validity of heretical baptisms was itself “heretical,” then he would not have said that the deceased converts, who were not rebaptized, “died in the Church.” If Fathers Rulleau and Laisney wish to believe that Saint Cyprian was transmitting an apostolic tradition concerning baptism of desire, fine; but they certainly should not insist that fellow Catholics are obligated to believe that. They should also take note that Saint Augustine did not cite Cyprian as an authority when he first proposed baptism of desire as his own personal opinion.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.