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Offline Santo Subito

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Video: NO Priest: Athiests Can Be Saved
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2011, 10:54:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    it is true that ignorence of some sins mostly church laws not divine laws, that ignorence can reduce CULPABILITY, but it is still a mortal sin and it still produces a mortal stain upon their soul just as Original Sin produces a mortal stain on our soul's that must be removed via Baptism.


    This is absolutely incorrect. Open any orthodox Catholic morality textbook and you'll see that knowledge is one of the three necessary conditions of mortal sin. If you don't know an action is wrong and commit it thinking it to be right it is impossible for that to be a mortal sin.

    Offline twiceborn

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    Video: NO Priest: Athiests Can Be Saved
    « Reply #46 on: September 22, 2011, 11:19:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Because atheists are in a perilous state as regards salvation as are other non-Catholics.


    If you truly believe this, then you are being evil by engaging in the completely fruitless and rash speculation over wether or not atheists may be saved as atheists. In trying to justify their atheism as anything other than a sin wholly displeasing to God, your speculation merely emboldens any atheist who sees your posts and thus you contribute to them remaining in their "perilous state".


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: LordPhan
    it is true that ignorence of some sins mostly church laws not divine laws, that ignorence can reduce CULPABILITY, but it is still a mortal sin and it still produces a mortal stain upon their soul just as Original Sin produces a mortal stain on our soul's that must be removed via Baptism.


    This is absolutely incorrect. Open any orthodox Catholic morality textbook and you'll see that knowledge is one of the three necessary conditions of mortal sin. If you don't know an action is wrong and commit it thinking it to be right it is impossible for that to be a mortal sin.


    Santo, you aren't thinking logically. You go around with the viewpoint that someone has to want to sin to be sinning, but that is not entirely correct. Using that logic, satanists would be about the only group of religion that would go to hell since they know satan is bad but worship him anyway. You are forgetting that Christ says those who do not acknowledge Him, He cannot acknowledge to His Father.

    So basically you're saying a person must be told there is a Trinity but say "Very well but I'd rather go my own way" to be sinning. That just is not in line with what the Church teaches. I suggest you get out of your Vatican II mindset and pay attention for once.

    Atheists CHOOSE to deny God, and by doing so are in mortal sin. The same can be said for all false religions. If you choose to do something that is sinful, you're in sin. It's not like they act without thinking, they know very well what they're doing and are aware of proof that God exists but choose to put trust in science.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #48 on: September 23, 2011, 09:31:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    How can God possibly hold someone accountable for an action that they in good conscience did not know was wrong and, in fact, they sincerely believed to be true? This goes against natural justice.


    Wrong again. It isn't out of good conscience, they are presented with the proof that God exists and say "I don't believe it, He does not exist". That is mortally sinful, and if you truly believe it's not then you are in heresy.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #49 on: September 23, 2011, 03:25:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: LordPhan
    it is true that ignorence of some sins mostly church laws not divine laws, that ignorence can reduce CULPABILITY, but it is still a mortal sin and it still produces a mortal stain upon their soul just as Original Sin produces a mortal stain on our soul's that must be removed via Baptism.


    This is absolutely incorrect. Open any orthodox Catholic morality textbook and you'll see that knowledge is one of the three necessary conditions of mortal sin. If you don't know an action is wrong and commit it thinking it to be right it is impossible for that to be a mortal sin.


    That is true, but the question is rather is their lack of knowledge culpable or does it serve even as a form of punishment for sin in this life (see St. Thomas)?  Even if their ignorance is inculpable, this fact still does not change their state one iota.  Ignorance doesn't supply for anything, it might mitigate punishment or even remove a particular punishment for a particular sin, but it doesn't add anything to the condition of the soul itself.  Positive qualities, such as supernatural faith and charity are absolutely necessary for salvation.  An atheist, by definition possesses neither.  Now if you are saying that it is possible for any man to be saved, this is a mere truism, but when you qualify the term "man" in some way, e.g. "atheist," "Jєωιѕн," "Muslim," etc. you are specifying a certain objective condition.  That is why the Council of Florence could teach what it taught, because it was speaking objectively.  The problem with Vatican II is that it attempted to objectify subjectivism and drove everyone's mind into the confusion of the latter.  


    Offline Baskerville

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    « Reply #50 on: September 23, 2011, 03:57:20 PM »
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  • Well color me surprised a NO dude pretending to be a real Priest said something heretical! He's just following his heretical Popes example.

    Offline Baskerville

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    « Reply #51 on: September 23, 2011, 04:00:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    From the Syllubus of Errors:

    "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846.
     
    CONDEMNED!  



    And this should end the thread. But oh no people have to try and try to teach the kumbayah universal salvation of VII yet call themselves "traditional".

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #52 on: September 23, 2011, 04:02:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Baskerville
    But oh no people have to try and try to teach the kumbayah universal salvation of VII yet call themselves "traditional".


    Perfect word to describe it!  :laugh1:
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Santo Subito

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    « Reply #53 on: September 23, 2011, 05:12:26 PM »
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  • http://periodicals.faqs.org/201103/2277178011.html

    Quote
    SINE CULPA? VATICAN II AND INCULPABLE IGNORANCE

    Publication: Theological Studies
    Author: Bullivant, Stephen
     Date published: March 1, 2011
     
    VATICAN II'S LUMEN GENTIUM NO. 14 reiterates the traditional Catholic teaching on the trifold necessity of faith, baptism, and the (mediation of the) church for salvation. This is an infallible, de fide doctrine. Yet, as the theological controversies of preceding decades had shown, it must "be understood in the sense in which it is understood by the Church itself."1 Since the council, as Lumen gentium no. 16 proceeds to demonstrate, it must be understood in a way that is compatible with the affirmation that Jews, Muslims, "those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God,"2 and atheists, while remaining as such, are somehow able to be saved. In 1972, Joseph Ratzinger, commenting on the patristic axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus ("no salvation outside the church"), observed: "The primary question is no longer the salvation of the 'others,' the theoretical possibility of which is assured; the actual guiding question is rather how, given this undeniable certainty, the absolute requirement of the Church and its faith is still to be understood."3 It is this development that Francis Sullivan - in a monograph to which this article is indebted - regards as constituting a "radical change from pessimism to optimism"4 in the Church's understanding of the salvation of non-Christians.

    It must be said, however, that the council's genuine optimism is nonetheless a qualified and restricted one. Two Latin words ring like a refrain throughout the council's statements as to who may be saved: sine culpa, "without fault/blame." Ignorantia and its cognates are equally prominent. Lumen gentium no. 16 thus refers to those "who are, without fault, ignorant [sine culpa, ignorantes] of the Gospel of Christ and his Church," and to those "who, without fault [sine culpa], have not yet arrived at an express recognition of God."5 Article 14's stipulation of faith, baptism, and the Church as necessary for salvation is suffixed with the warning: "those men cannot be saved, who not being ignorant [non ignorantes (of the fact that)] the Catholic Church has been founded as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, are nevertheless unwilling either to enter it, or to persevere in it."6 Significantly, the use of the awkward phrase non ignorantes was a deliberate decision by the Council Fathers: in several earlier drafts of Lumen gentium, referring to a single nonbeliever, the more natural sciens ("knowing") is used.7 It seems that those drafting these paragraphs intended to highlight the importance of ignorance to the question of salvation, hence this apparent inclusio between nos. 14 and 16. Elsewhere, in article 7 of Ad gentes, the Decree on the Missionary Activity of the Church, the same point is reiterated: "God is able to lead men who are, without fault of their own, ignorant [sine eorum culpa ignorantes] of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Hebrews 11:6)."8 Vatican II's extension of the possibility of salvation to non-Christians is thus predicated on the sine qua non of their being inculpably (sine culpa) ignorant of one or more of these realities: the Church, Christ and - in the case of atheists - the existence of God (or, perhaps more accurately, inculpably ignorant of their own obligations in light of these realities).

    The council's affirmation of inculpable ignorance as a precondition for a non-Christian's salvation raises a great many questions - none of which, perhaps sensibly, it answered. Who would count as being inculpably ignorant? Must one never have heard of Christianity, or would a merely superficial acquaintance with the gospel also count? What about people brought up in historically Christian countries, who have been baptized and perhaps confirmed and communicated, who have attended Catholic schools, or even been married in a Catholic Church - might even some of these be inculpably ignorant? (This latter point is by no means purely hypothetical, since a significant proportion of atheists, especially in the West, would have been, as they still are, in precisely this situation.) Matters are further complicated by the fact that Pius IX, in his 1854 allocution Singulari quadam, introduced the Thomistic principle of invincible ignorance into the Church's magisterial teaching on salvation. There he stresses the abiding truth of extra ecclesiam, and yet qualifies it by saying:

    But equally, it is to be held for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not bound by any fault in this matter in the eyes of the Lord. Now truly, who would arrogate so much to himself, as to be able to designate the limits of this kind of ignorance, because of the reason and variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and a great many other things?9

    This teaching was repeated in the Holy Office's 1949 letter to the Archbishop of Boston, which is itself, in turn, cited in a footnote to Lumen gentium no. 16. Is inculpable ignorance, then, the same as invincible ignorance? If not, what material difference do the two terms signify? The issue is still more problematic in view of the fact that "invincible" ignorance was retained elsewhere in the conciliar corpus,10 and continues to be used in magisterial pronouncements on moral issues.

    The Council Fathers' reticence on these questions is understandable. Indeed, as Henri de Lubac once remarked, "It is neither useful nor desirable for a council to concern itself with technical theological discussions."11 More puzzling, however, is contemporary Catholic theologians' seeming lack of interest. Recent major works on the salvation of non-Christians by, for example, Jacques Dupuis, Gerald O'Collins, and Gavin D'Costa offer no sustained expositions.12 This is, I contend, a significant lacuna, and one to which considerably more theological attention should be paid.

    I intend this article to be a modest contribution toward this end; only some of the questions raised above will be broached. My argument proceeds in four, relatively brief movements. First, I examine the classical, Thomistic understanding of invincible ignorance, its roots in Scripture, and its subsequent employment by Pius IX. Next, I consider how, following the discovery of the New World in 1492, the application of the Thomistic understanding was significantly reappraised. This ressourcement focuses on two 16th-century Spanish Dominicans, Francisco de Vitoria and Bartolomé de Las Casas. My third section returns to Vatican II and argues that the new emphasis on ignorantia sine culpa significantly mirrors the Vitorian and Lascasian developments of the doctrine of ignorantia invincibilis. My fourth and final section unites the foregoing analyses, elucidating Vatican II's understanding of inculpable ignorance as both a rediscovery of elements already present in the tradition, and (in light of insights from the sociology of knowledge) as justifying a wide-ranging "presumption of ignorance"13 on the part of contemporary non-Christians. My examples focus principally on atheists (understood here in the broad, value-neutral sense of those without a belief in the existence of a God or gods), since these have most to be inculpably ignorant about. But the general thrust of my argument also applies, mutatis mutandis, to members of non-Christian religions.14

    INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

    In general terms, support for the mitigating nature of ignorance may ultimately be derived from Scripture. Note, for instance, Jesus' gloss on the parable of the watchful slaves in Luke: "That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. But one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating" (12:47-48).15 A similar idea is behind James's admonition: "Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin" (4:17) - the implication being, of course, that sin is not committed by someone who fails to do the right thing out of ignorance. Strikingly, 1 Timothy imputes to Paul the belief that, "even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor and a man of violence ... I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief" (1:13). Paul's speech at the Areopagus states that "God has overlooked the times of ignorance" (Acts 17:30). And at Romans 10:14 he famously asks, "But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?" The fact that Paul apparently does believe that "all" have heard (see 10:18), does not nullify the importance of the question. Elsewhere, the grave warning in Mark 16:16 that "the one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned" - a favored proof text of the dogmatic tradition for affirming the absolute necessity of faith for salvation (e.g., Lumen gentium no. 14; Dominus Iesus no. 3) - is dependent on the previous verse's command, "Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation" (16:15). Thus this stark condemnation of nonbelievers assumes that they have heard the gospel, and (culpably) rejected it. Finally, the Johannine Jesus says even of those who actively persecute the church: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. ... If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. . . . But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father" (Jn 15:22-24). Once again, Christ's condemnation explicitly presupposes a lack of ignorance and hence a culpable rejection.

    Much later, these biblical precedents became crystallized in the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas. He writes in the Summa theologiae:

    Now it is manifest that whosoever neglects to have or do those things that he is obliged to have or do, sins by a sin of omission. Thus because of negligence, ignorance of those things which someone is obliged to know, is a sin.

    However, negligence is not imputed to a man if he is not able to know those things which he does not know. Thus ignorance of these things is called invincible: because it obviously cannot be overcome [even] by effort. Because of this, this kind of ignorance is not a sin, since it is not voluntary, and it is not in our power to repel it.

    Thus it is obvious that invincible ignorance is never a sin: vincible ignorance is a sin, if it is of those things which someone is obliged to know, but not if it is of those things which he is not obliged to know.16

    Aquinas draws an important and influential distinction between two kinds of ignorance. Vincible ignorance is such that a person both could and should have overcome it. Such ignorance, born from negligence, does not excuse sin. Conversely, invincible ignorance is such that the person is not able, even by diligence, to overcome it. Hence there is no sin to excuse. In the Summa, this consideration is presented as a general principle and is not applied to the question of salvation. In his Quaestiones disputatae de ventate, however, Aquinas had already considered the situation of someone being invincibly ignorant (although the precise phrase is not used) of the gospel. It is noteworthy that Aquinas, writing in the mid-1200s, was able only to envisage this scenario in terms of someone having been brought up "in the woods or among brute animals" (the assumption being that the gospel had, by now, been preached throughout the whole world). Given the exceptional nature of this case, Aquinas is justified in positing an exceptional solution:

    For if someone was brought up in such a way, provided that he had followed his natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, it is certainly to be held that God would either reveal to him by an internal inspiration the things which are necessarily to be believed, or would direct some preacher of the faith to him, just as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10).17

    Note that, in this thought-experiment, the subject literally could not even have heard of Christ. Aquinas does not, for example, pick a pious Muslim or Jew who, despite having heard of Christ and the Church, has no particular reason for wanting to find out more about them.18 Rather, this person's ignorance is "invincible" in a very strong sense of the word. When, several centuries later, Pius IX adopted Aquinas's terminology in order to qualify his robust defense of extra ecclesiam, it is therefore tempting to assume that he had in mind a similarly narrow frame of application. This interpretation would gain support from the pessimistic position, evinced in his 1864 Syllabus of Errors, impugning the opinion that: "Good hope at least is to be considered regarding the eternal salvation of all those who are not in the true Church of Christ."19 Yet in Singulari quadam, Pius's application of the principle is conspicuously wider than that apparently envisaged by Aquinas. Indeed, as I have noted, Pius resolutely refuses to set definitive limits to its application: "Who would arrogate so much to himself, as to be able to designate the limits of this kind of ignorance, due to the reason and variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and a great many other things?"20 This is a startling admission, and constitutes a major landmark on the road to Lumen gentium. But, as so often with the development of doctrine, to move forward one must first look backward. For, as I will show, such a nuanced comprehension of invincible ignorance's possible extent was by no means a 19th-century innovation.

    VITORIA AND LAS CASAS

    Christopher Columbus discovered the Indies in 1492 and promptly claimed them for the Spanish crown (ratified the following year by Pope Alexander VFs bull Inter caetera). The ensuing gold rush was disastrous for the Continent. The population of the Indies fell precipitously within 30 years, primarily from disease, but also from, as Nathan Wachtel puts it, "murderous oppression."21 Las Casas, writing 50 years after Columbus's discovery, observed:

    The pattern established at the outset has remained unchanged to this day, and the Spaniards still do nothing save tear the natives to shreds, murder them and inflict upon them untold misery, suffering and distress, tormenting, harrying and persecuting them mercilessly.22

    His indictment is confirmed by Gonzalo Fernández de Oviedo, appointed official historian of the Spanish Crown in 1523, and no friend to either Las Casas or the indigenous people: "If all were written in detail as it was done, there would be neither time nor paper to enumerate all that the captains did to destroy the Indians and to rob and ravish the land."23 It is against this background that the Vitorian and Lascasian developments of invincible ignorance must be understood.

    As the destruction of the Indies continued unabated, members of the Spanish intelligentsia began to question whether or not these overseas campaigns constituted "just wars." Francisco de Vitoria (ca. 1492-1546) broached the issue in his professorial "relection" De Indis (On the Indies), delivered in Salamanca in 1539. He counters the opinion that war against the Indians is morally and legally justified because "they refuse to accept the faith of Christ, although it has been proposed to them, and they have been insistently admonished to accept it,"24 arguing instead that, due to certain mitigating factors, the Indians remain invincibly ignorant of the Christian proclamation. He contends, on the authority of Romans 10:14, that "if the faith has not been preached to them, they are invincibly ignorant [ignorant invincibiliter], because they are not capable of knowing."25 So far he agrees with Aquinas. But Vitoria goes further:

    The barbarians are not bound to believe from the first announcement of the Christian faith, in the sense of sinning mortally by not believing due to this alone: because it is merely announced and proposed to them that the true religion is Christian, and that Christ is the savior and redeemer of the world, without miracles or any other proofs or arguments.26

    If unbelievers are preserved from guilt by never having heard of Christianity (as in Aquinas's thought-experiment), then equally for Vitoria: "they are not obligated by this kind of simple statement and announcement. Such an announcement is no argument or motive for believing." Moreover, as he quotes from Cardinal Cajetan, "it is rash and imprudent of anyone to believe something (especially in matters such as these, concerning salvation) unless one knows it to be from a trustworthy source."27 Now of course, if Christianity is preached in a probable fashion, supported by rational arguments, and by people whose behavior concurs with what is taught, then the Indians are indeed "obliged to accept the faith of Christ under pain of mortal sin."28 With regard to the current situation, however1, "it is not sufficiently clear to me that the Christian faith has thus far been proposed and announced to the barbarians so as to obligate them to believe it. . . . It does not appear that the Christian religion has been preached to them suitably and piously, so as to obligate acquiescence."29 Hence Vitoria insists that ignorance remains fully invincible (and therefore morally inculpable) when Christianity is presented only very superficially, unaccompanied by any more persuasive catechesis.30

    Bartolomé de Las Casas (1484-1566) concurs on key points with his Dominican confrère, railing in book after book against the conquistadores' failures to present Christianity in any remotely convincing manner. Due to the sheer volume of his writings on this topic, it is worth concentrating on his critique of one especially notorious example: the Requerimiento, devised in 1513 by the celebrated jurist Juan Palacios López de Rubos. This text, "one of the strangest docuмents in Spanish history,"31 was intended to be declaimed, in Latin, upon first contact with Indian nations. It outlines the history of the world from Creation, noting especially the establishment of the papacy and the pope's donation of the Indies to Spain. It then requires (hence its name) that those listening submit to the Church, the pope and the Spanish Crown, and that they allow the Christian faith to be preached to them; then comes the explanation of what will happen if they do not so consent: "We shall take you and your wives and children and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods and will do all the harm and damage that we can."32 Las Casas, not surprisingly, confesses in his History of the Indies not to "know whether to laugh or cry at [its] absurdity,"33 and asks, "What credit should a people who lived at peace in its territory without harming anyone be expected to give to such a bill of sale?"34 Naturally, he does not dispute the Requerimiento' % truthclaims concerning the Church and the papacy. Yet, importantly, he denies their authority for those who have only just been informed of the existence of these institutions, especially when delivered by "bearded messengers armed to the teeth with terrible weapons."35 Indeed, as he quotes elsewhere from Sirach 19:4: "Being too ready to trust shows shallowness of mind."36 Needless to say, such a skeletal presentation does not constitute evangelization in any meaningful sense and therefore does not nullify any hitherto-present invincible ignorance.

    Yet the inadequacy of the proclamation was not the severest grievance of Vitoria and Las Casas. Rather, both object most vociferously to the defamation of the Faith by (in the latter's words) "the devils of the New World who masquerade as Christians."37 Thus Vitoria complains that he hears "only of many scandals, cruel atrocities, and multiple impieties,"38 and exasperatedly exclaims, "Would that the sins of some Christians were not much worse (the sin of unbelief notwithstanding) than those among these barbarians!"39 And for Las Casas, the conduct of those who "are not warriors for Christ, but for anti-Christ"40 have brought it about "that nothing is more odious nor more terrifying to the people than the name Christian."41 Such people have damned "those who grew to hate our faith because of the awful example you gave, grew to ridicule the universal Church, grew to blaspheme God."42 In his In Defense of the Indians (ca. 1550), Las Casas directly links this experience with invincible ignorance.43 After asserting that the invincibly ignorant "are not obliged to believe unless the faith is fully presented and explained to them by suitable ministers,"44 he declares: "A great many unbelievers are excused from accepting the faith for a long time and perhaps for their whole lifetime, no matter how long it lasts, so long as they see the extremely corrupt and detestable conduct of the Christians."45

    Taking the writings of Vitoria and Las Casas together, it is possible to identify from them three interrelated reasons why invincible ignorance may perdure after someone has not only heard of Christ and the Church, but has perhaps even been (objectively) evangelized. The first reason is that the proclamation itself may be intrinsically inadequate. At its most extreme, the simple assertion of the mere existence of Christ or the Church is not sufficiently persuasive to demand assent. The second reason is that certain social factors, while extrinsic to the proclamation itself, may undermine its claims to authority. (This "sociological" point, which Las Casas only hints at, will be explained in more detail below.) And the third reason - which is, properly speaking, a notably conspicuous example of the second - recognizes that the misconduct of Christians (acting either singularly or collectively) may so defame Christianity as to prolong invincible ignorance over a long period of time, and perhaps indefinitely. It will be recognized that these reasons constitute a considerable widening of invincible ignorance's application compared to Aquinas's "in the woods or among brute animals" thought-experiment (framed as it was by his reasonable, but nonetheless false, assumptions regarding the extent and adequacy of evangelization up to that point). On that note, I return to Vatican II.

    VATICAN II

    As indicated above, neither Lumen gentium nos. 14-16 nor Ad gentes no. 7 explains quite what inculpable ignorance might entail. A revealing clue, however, may be found in Gaudium et spes no. 19. It avers, first of all, that "those who willfully try to drive God from their heart and to avoid religious questions, not following the dictate of their conscience, are not devoid of fault [culpae expertes non sunt]."46 This is an important and necessary qualification to the council's (and my own) salvific optimism: inculpability is by no means a foregone conclusion, and must not simply be taken for granted. Yet the very same sentence continues: "however, believers themselves often bear a certain responsibility for this." More strikingly, this claim is soon elaborated with reference to both the first ("inadequate proclamation") and third ("Christian misconduct") of the Lascasian/Vitorian criteria: "believers can have no small part in the rise of atheism, since by neglecting education in the faith, teaching false doctrine, or through defects in their own religious, moral, or social lives, they may be said rather more to conceal than reveal the true countenance of God and of religion."47

    The Council Fathers' deliberations on this issue make for interesting reading. At the third session in 1964, Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens urged that while atheism is certainly a terrible error, ... it would be too easy simply to condemn it. It is necessary to examine why so many men profess themselves to be atheists, and who precisely is this "God" they so sharply attack. Thus dialogue should be begun with them so that they may seek and recognize the true image of God who is perhaps concealed under the caricatures they reject. On our part, meanwhile, we should examine our way of speaking of God and living the faith, lest the sun of the living God is darkened for them.48.

    Similarly, during the fourth session in 1965, Cardinals Franjo Seper and Franz König expressed the opinion that Christians are largely to blame for the rise and spread of atheism.49 The Melkite patriarch of Antioch, Máximos Saigh, went further, asserting that atheists "are often scandalized by the sight of a mediocre and egotistical Christendom absorbed by money and false riches." He adds: "Is it not the egotism of certain Christians which has caused, and causes to a great extent, the atheism of the masses?"50 While these statements were made during the discussions leading to Gaudium et spes rather than to Lumen gentium, they nevertheless shed light on what the council meant by ignorantia sine culpa. Furthermore, although referring especially to atheists, there is no reason why these considerations do not also apply, mutatis mutandis, to other groupings. The "egotism of certain Christians" may just as easily scandalize Muslims, Sikhs, and Buddhists - or, for that matter, other Christians (perhaps these most of all) - as they do atheists. If so, then this would also be a factor in maintaining their inculpable ignorance regarding Catholic truth-claims about the gospel and the Church, even if not necessarily with regard to the existence of God.


    What Vatican II seems to have intended by inculpable ignorance is, therefore, in substantial agreement with what, in the 16th century, Las Casas and Vitoria meant by invincible ignorance. That is not, of course, to ignore the major disparities between their respective Sitze im Leben: many of Vatican IPs ignorantes would, presumably, have been brought up either within at least nominally Christian societies, or would have had at least some acquaintance, however superficial, with Christianity. Differences aside, however, both Vatican II and the great Dominicans accept that (1) inculpable/invincible ignorance prevents unbelief from being sinful; and (2) this kind of ignorance may be prolonged, even after acquaintance with Christianity and the Church's proclamation, if the latter is either intrinsically insufficient or if Christians themselves fail scandalously (in the full, scriptural sense of the term) to live up to the name. This latter consideration constitutes, as I have shown, a significant development over Aquinas's own, apparently restricted, application.51 Such broadening of application perhaps explains the Council Fathers' avoidance of the term ignorantia invincibilis. For those schooled in (neo-) Thomism, as were the vast majority of at least the Latin-rite Council Fathers and periti, the phrase "invincible ignorance" may well have carried overtones of its original, narrow application. Pius IX, however, had already departed from this application by acknowledging the "variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and so many other things." Thus, with its doctrine of inculpable ignorance, Vatican II both authentically developed Pius IX's teaching on invincible ignorance and (apparently unwittingly) rediscovered an understanding of invincible ignorance already firmly present in the nonmagisterial tradition of the Church, while at the same time seemingly avoiding the phrase itself as something potentially misleading.52

    Offline Santo Subito

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    « Reply #54 on: September 23, 2011, 05:17:02 PM »
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  • http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/the_salvation_o.html

    The Salvation Of Atheists

    A reader writes:

    Can a sincere atheist get saved? I'm convinced he can, since God won't punish somebody for not knowing something he genuinely never knew, but it seems to me that his salvation requires that his choice be made after his death, since presumably he never saw the choice while he was alive. I think anybody has to at least say, "God, whoever or whatever you are, forgive my sins and take me to be with you." This lets in Moslems and (I suppose) Hindus and what-have-you -- Christ has a long reach --  but the real athesit wouldn't ever have occasion to say that.

    I keep thinking of the bit in 1 Peter 3, where Christ preaches to the "spirits in prison." Since they needed preaching-to, it seems that their consequential decision was not yet made, but there they were in some Purgatory-like situation.

    I always agree with Protestants -- mostly while discussing Purgatory -- that a person is saved or damned at his death, with no second chances, but now I wonder if people who truly never had the occasion to choose God while alive get that choice after they die. I suppose they might each have got a clear sight of it during their lives, and rejected it, but a lot of atheists seem to be completely honest.


    The idea that someone at least has to say something like, "God, whoever or whatever you are, forgive my sins and take me to be with you" is found in the book of Hebrews, where we read that


    without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him [Heb. 11:6].

    Based on this, many have conjectured that belief in God is an indispensible prerequisite for salvation and thus that atheists are damned.

    There is a question, thoug, about whether the author of Hebrews means his statement to be an absolute statement about salvation that admits of no exceptions or whether it is meant in a looser sense that could allow some without an explicit belief in God to be saved.

    This was a matter of discussion in Catholic theology prior to the Second Vatican Council, but Vatican II seemed to answer that, in addition to Jews and Muslims and others who believe in God, it was possible for people who do not believe in God to be saved:


    Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life [Lumen Gentium 16].

    "Those who . . . have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God" would seem to include not only members of non-Abrahamic religions but also atheists.

    The constitution Gaudium et Spes also stressed the universal possibility of salvation:


    Since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery [Gaudium et Spes 22].

    The question is: In what way does God offer this possibility of salvation? Is it something that comes to people after this life if they never heard the gospel during it or is it something that comes in this life?

    The passage that you refer to in 1 Peter is one that has often been taken as suggesting that there is a kind of second chance after death for at least some people, and it is easy to see why. The passage reads:


    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;  in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water [1 Peter 3:18-20].

    If the preaching that Christ does in this passage is the preaching of the gospel so that they may be saved then it would seem that there is a second chance after death for at least some people (i.e., those who died in the Flood). On the other hand, this may not be what Peter is referring to. He might mean something else. Possibilities could include:

    1) The preaching is that the time of release has come. In this case it might be that the spirits who disobeyed in the past--although saved--were held in a kind of purgatorial prison and that now that Christ has died their time of purification is over and they will be going to heaven.

    2) The preaching is a bare declaration of Christ's coming, with no offer of salvation. In this case it would seem to be a vindication of God's justice and/or mercy in the face of those who refused it. In other words: "God would have saved you from your sins if you had turned to him, as he has now proven by sending his Son to die for the sins of the world. You refused to repent and turn to God, so your condemnation is just."

    3) These aren't human spirits at all and so aren't subject to redemption. They might be the spirits that Jude refers to as "the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling [and] have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). Peter might then be linking the non-human spirits with the sins that brought on the Flood. In this case Christ might be preaching to them the fact that he has now come and redeemed mankind, despite their attempt to so corrupt mankind that it would be completely wiped out and destroyed.

    In each of these cases, there would be no second chance after death.

    Because of the ambiguity in the passage--as well as the general impression that Scripture gives that we have only this lifetime to make our peace with God--it has remained a perpetual conundrum for Bible interpreters.

    For its part, the Catholic Church has seen death as the definitive moment at which each must choose for or against God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:


    Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ [CCC 1021].

    I haven't been able to verify an infallible definition of this point (though there may be one; something in my memory is saying that I've seen a claim that there is one, though I'd have to see the original source docuмent to see if this particular point was defined). If there is no definition then it could be possible that there is a post-morten second chance for at least some, but the overall tenor of Catholic theology--with its focus on death as the definitive moment of life--is against it.

    It strikes me that it would be easier to account for the salvation of atheists along the lines of an implicit openness to God.

    In other words, if an atheist sincerely says to himself, "I want to do whatever is right--that is the controlling axiom of my life; whatever is ultimately true and good, that is what I intend to follow" then this atheist has fundamentally opened himself to God such that if he knew the truth of God's existence he would believe in and follow God. Due to his circuмstance, though, he is unaware that God is what is ultimately true and good.
     

    Thus any atheist who could say, "I don't think that God exists, but if I was shown convincing reasons to believe that he does then I would go and get baptized immediately and become one of his devout followers" then this person's heart is such that God will not hold his ignorance against him and will allow him to be saved.

    On the other hand, if an atheist says, "Even if there is a God, I'll still refuse to believe in him and I'll spit in his face when I die" then this person is toast.

    Between the two would be atheists who display some openness to God but who also to one degree or another resist compelling reasons to believe that he exist when they encounter such reasons. These individuals would seem to be in an ambiguous condition. If their openness to believing in and following God is their more fundamental motive then they would be open to his grace and be saved. If their resistance to believing in or following God is their more fundamental motive then they would be closed to his grace and thus lost.

    Or that's how it seems to me.

    It's still a matter for debate.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #55 on: September 23, 2011, 07:11:08 PM »
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  • I'll pass over that piling heap of confusion that passes for theology including errors that are proximate to heresy and repeat, once again, that even inculpable ignorance does not supply for a defect.      


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #56 on: September 23, 2011, 07:29:25 PM »
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  • "Whereas the previous question is the same as inquiring "whether an erring conscience binds"; so this question is the same as inquiring "whether an erring conscience excuses." Now this question depends on what has been said above about ignorance. For it was said (6, 8) that ignorance sometimes causes an act to be involuntary, and sometimes not. And since moral good and evil consist in action in so far as it is voluntary, as was stated above (Article 2); it is evident that when ignorance causes an act to be involuntary, it takes away the character of moral good and evil; but not, when it does not cause the act to be involuntary. Again, it has been stated above (Question 6, Article 8) that when ignorance is in any way willed, either directly or indirectly, it does not cause the act to be involuntary. And I call that ignorance "directly" voluntary, to which the act of the will tends: and that, "indirectly" voluntary, which is due to negligence, by reason of a man not wishing to know what he ought to know, as stated above (Question 6, Article 8).

    If then reason or conscience err with an error that is voluntary, either directly, or through negligence, so that one errs about what one ought to know; then such an error of reason or conscience does not excuse the will, that abides by that erring reason or conscience, from being evil. But if the error arise from ignorance of some circuмstance, and without any negligence, so that it cause the act to be involuntary, then that error of reason or conscience excuses the will, that abides by that erring reason, from being evil. For instance, if erring reason tell a man that he should go to another man's wife, the will that abides by that erring reason is evil; since this error arises from ignorance of the Divine Law, which he is bound to know. But if a man's reason, errs in mistaking another for his wife, and if he wish to give her her right when she asks for it, his will is excused from being evil: because this error arises from ignorance of a circuмstance, which ignorance excuses, and causes the act to be involuntary
    ." Summa Theol., I-II, q. 19, a. 6, corp.

    And in many cases, especially with so-called "atheists" it is not a question of "conscience" at all, but rather a stiff-necked prideful refusal to assent to a simple proposition that, though not directly self-evident to us, is nevertheless self-evident in itself.  That is why St. Paul asserts that they are without an excuse.  A man who simply denies the existence of God is no man of good faith and I can say that with moral certainty.  Such blindness is usually the result of other sins and as such is a punishment from God.  Hey, if we're going to deal in "probabilities" lets at least get them in the right order.    

    Be that as it may, and in light of the fact that you have consistently refused to engage my posts personally and directly, I shall rest my case.  I simply have not the time nor the inclination to sort through that mess you posted above, but I would strongly suggest avoiding such "sources" in forming your intellect and return to approved theologians and Thomist theology.    

    Offline twiceborn

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    « Reply #57 on: September 23, 2011, 07:52:47 PM »
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  • Lumen Gentium 16 is a modernist masterpiece. It has to be the most pernicious paragraph in all of Vatican II.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    « Reply #58 on: September 23, 2011, 08:02:09 PM »
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  • Remember everyone...when in doubt and flailing in a losing argument, just post a massive article to back your claim up and you will LOOK more intelligent and have the upper hand.


    *cough*Santo Subito*cough*

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #59 on: September 23, 2011, 08:58:11 PM »
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  • Um...using Vatican II to help your case? If anything, that HURTS your case. Come on Santo, get real.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.