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Author Topic: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  (Read 7438 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2019, 12:55:23 AM »
Council of Chalcedon – 451 A.D.

The letter of Pope Leo to Flavian, bishop of Constantinople, about Eutyches

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм04.htm


Quote
(. . .)

He had no idea how he ought to think about the incarnation of the Word of God; and he had no desire to acquire the light of understanding by working through the length and breadth of the holy scriptures. So at least he should have listened carefully and accepted the common and undivided creed by which the whole body of the faithful confess that they believe in

God the Father almighty and in
Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.



Offline trad123

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Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2019, 01:02:12 AM »
https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/lot's-quote-spamming/msg559068/#msg559068


Quote
On the Progression of BoD/BoB

Those early Church Fathers who believed in BoB/BoD ONLY EVER APPLIED the notion to formal CATECHUMENS.  They never entertained the possibility that it could apply to non-Christians (Catechumens were considered Christians but not part of "the faithful").  For the first SIXTEEN HUNDRED YEARS of Church History no Catholic EVER disputed the doctrine that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.  Even the Athanasian Creed teaches this.

But sometime about the year 1600 a handful of Jesuits started dabbling with the notion that people could have supernatural faith by explicitly believing only in the existence of God as a rewarder/punisher ... a novelty.

With this new heretical tool in hand, heretical because it violates a dogmatic teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium undisputed for 1600 years, the Jesuits combined this with the notion of an "implicit" Baptism of desire contained in the generic feeling of wanting to do whatever God wants of them.  So in this way, the Jesuits and their followers were able to extend salvation to all manner of non-Catholic and even infidel ... so long as they had some belief in God.  See how far we had come from the one or two Church Fathers who believed that formal Catechumens who had officially joined the Church as "Christians" through a formal public ceremony and who publicly professed belief in the true faith and who basically not only desired Baptism but even had it scheduled "on their calendar" ... to now any well-meaning infidel who doesn't even believe in Christ, never heard of Baptism, but just sincerely wants to do the will of some generic deity.

This upended and destroyed Tridentine Catholic ecclesiology which emphasized that the Church is a visible society to which only those belong who publicly profess the Catholic faith.

Now the Church could include all these people only invisibly united to it ... heretics, infidels, etc.

But since there's no salvation outside the Church (as defined several times by the Church), you have to say that heretics, infidels, etc. who are saved must have been inside the Church during their lives.

THIS IS PRECISELY THE "SUBSISTENCE" ECCLESIOLOGY AND SUBJECTIVIST SOTERIOLOGY TAUGHT BY VATICAN II and is the fundamental error on which ALL the Vatican II errors rest.  Yet these blithering idiot sedevacantists who accuse V2 and the V2 Popes of "heresy" for adopting this ecclesiology are among the most vocal proponents of the EXACT SAME ECCLESIOLOGY.  In so doing, they condemn themselves and they undermine any valid reason for resisting Vatican II.  Consequently, if I believed in this ecclesiology/soteriology as promoted by the Cushingite BoDers, I would have to accept Vatican II and recant my schism from the Catholic Church.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2019, 07:21:14 AM »
Thanks for these great quotes, trad123.

One of the dogmatic EENS definitions explicitly says that there is "no salvation outside the Church of the faithful."

Now, even Msgr. Fenton admits that the faithful is a specific theological term which has always excluded catechumens.

How does he get around this?  He claims that a catechumen could be IN the Church of the faithful without actually being one OF the faithful.  That's an incredible stretch.  Msgr. Fenton admits much of the Church Tradition about this subject, and invents what I call the "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.  According to him, one can be IN the body without being PART of the body.  That's his end-around to get those outside the Church saved.  So ... just like some undigested food in the stomach that has yet to be assimilated into the body, and yet happens to be inside of it.