Author Topic: Vatican II BoD Ecclesiology (Read 7195 times)

Ladislaus · « **on:** March 10, 2014, 02:50:12 PM »

Quote from: Lumen Gentium

This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:08:47 PM »

I wonder how many hindus in Tibet Fellay believes are saved. Does he think it is common or is it an unusual occurrence to be in a state of grace and then saved without believing in the faith because you believe in a false religion.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:31:16 PM »

You hit on a key point, Matto.

Quote from: Unitatis Redintegration

The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.

BoDers would say these Protestant children grow up in a state of grace and remain in that state until they actively sin against the Faith.

So all Vatican II is doing is making a pastoral presumption that if you were BORN into Protestantism you haven't committed an actual sin against the faith.

But the principle is exactly the same.

Unitatis Redintegratio goes on to say that there isn't full communion with them and calls them separated brethren.

Again, this fits with the BoDer ecclesiology. If they haven't sinned against the faith and are in a state of grace, then they are within the Church (they must be if we can say that they could be saved).

So they are formally part of the Church, and yet materially divided.

Consequently, it's OK to say that the Church is divided (materially) without contradicting earlier Papal Magisterium that say the Church is one and undivided (formally).

This all fits perfectly with BoDer ecclesiology.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:42:11 PM »

Vatican II differs from Traditional BoDer ecclesiology only in its pastoral presumption of good faith on the part of those who were not born into Catholic Church.

bowler · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2014, 06:25:39 PM »

You are a meanie Ladislaus!

CI BODer Manifesto

From : Christ Among Us[/i], by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm. The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies:

"There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).

Many men come to God in this way through other, non-Christian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God's grace presence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).

MyrnaM · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2014, 06:36:58 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I wonder how many hindus in Tibet Fellay believes are saved. Does he think it is common or is it an unusual occurrence to be in a state of grace and then saved without believing in the faith because you believe in a false religion.

Well we all know how many "Pope" Francis believes, he loves to tell the world, EVERYONE IS SAVED. I wonder why he thinks Christ even founded a Church. Someone should ask him that question.

But, he still is the _ _ _ _, fill in the blanks. :scratchchin:

MyrnaM · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2014, 06:46:36 PM »

Ladislaus why start a new thread before answering the question put to you on the previous thread.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Ladislaus said:
That's the irony of this entire discussion. Sedevacantists tend to be the most diehard BoDers, and yet if there's ONE heresy I could accuse the V2 Papal Claimants of it's EENS-denial, but the ecclesiology and EENS-denial of the V2 Popes if practically identical in principle to the ecclesiology and EENS-denial of these very sedevacantists. So, if the V2 Popes are heretical non-popes, most of these folks are also heretical non-Catholics.

Let's turn it around here. Don't you hold the same heresy as your Non-Pope, consequently making you similarly non-Catholic?

The reason you notice Sedevacantist as being the most diehard BoDers might be because we have retained the traditional teachings of the Church, and BTW I recently read that you also believe, finally the Chair of Peter is empty. Reminder: Sedevacantist means the Chair of Peter is empty.

Welcome one sede to another Ladislaus.

To the above bolded, it only takes one heresy to admit the truth, what took you so long?

Explain to me how you could possible conclude that to believe in BOD is to reject EENS???

God is infinite; He has no bounds.

Why use the term above "Non-Pope" referring to myself, aren't you also someone who claims the Chair is empty at this time?

SJB · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2014, 07:08:19 PM »

Quote from: bowler

You are a meanie Ladislaus!

CI BODer Manifesto

From : Christ Among Us[/i], by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm. The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies:

"There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).

Many men come to God in this way through other, non-Christian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God's grace presence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).

Quoting modernists again, bowler? Why do you never quote any orthodox sources?

Why? Because you are a lying troll who hasn't a shred of the Faith in his head. You are an enemy of tradition because you attempt to associate modernists with those who are orthodox. That's why you love to quote only post V2 authors.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2014, 07:14:01 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Explain to me how you could possible conclude that to believe in BOD is to reject EENS???

Dear BODers,

Here is a simple question:

Do you believe that hindu in Tibet can be saved?

Yes or No

Please do not elaborate your answer. Just say yes or no.

bowler · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2014, 07:16:05 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

You hit on a key point, Matto.

Quote from: Unitatis Redintegration
The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.

BoDers would say these Protestant children grow up in a state of grace and remain in that state until they actively sin against the Faith.

So all Vatican II is doing is making a pastoral presumption that if you were BORN into Protestantism you haven't committed an actual sin against the faith.

But the principle is exactly the same.

Unitatis Redintegratio goes on to say that there isn't full communion with them and calls them separated brethren.

Again, this fits with the BoDer ecclesiology. If they haven't sinned against the faith and are in a state of grace, then they are within the Church (they must be if we can say that they could be saved).

So they are formally part of the Church, and yet materially divided.

Consequently, it's OK to say that the Church is divided (materially) without contradicting earlier Papal Magisterium that say the Church is one and undivided (formally).

This all fits perfectly with BoDer ecclesiology.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2014, 08:09:31 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quoting modernists again, bowler? Why do you never quote any orthodox sources?

Yeah, bowler, this text was from 1967, so it's modernist. Had it been from 1961, it would have been authoritative and you would have sinned not to accept it without question.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2014, 08:12:18 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Explain to me how you could possible conclude that to believe in BOD is to reject EENS???

I must have missed it, Myrna. We've spent pages on this question. It depends on how one understands BoD. There's a BoD that doesn't inherently undermine EENS; there's a BoD that does.

SJB · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2014, 08:23:29 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
Quoting modernists again, bowler? Why do you never quote any orthodox sources?

Yeah, bowler, this text was from 1967, so it's modernist. Had it been from 1961, it would have been authoritative and you would have sinned not to accept it without question.

Just quote some older text that supports your "view" or shut up Ladislaus. You guys all quote modernist texts then imply there are much older texts that say THE EXACT SAME thing when there are not.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:31:19 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: MyrnaM

Explain to me how you could possible conclude that to believe in BOD is to reject EENS???

Dear BODers,

Here is a simple question:

Do you believe that hindu in Tibet can be saved?

Yes or No

Please do not elaborate your answer. Just say yes or no.

Yes, if they die in the State of Grace, everyone who is in the State of Grace at the moment of their death saves their soul, because after that their soul is fixed forever. No more free will.

In other words the pagan becomes Catholic and through extraordinary grace converts as God converted St. Paul, who was killing Christians. He converted St.Paul by giving him the necessary grace to SEE, by blinding him. Interesting how God works that way!

MyrnaM · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:34:19 PM »