Author Topic: Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith (Read 11092 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:30:28 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I'm not sure how one can assume or wish the above proves anything in regards to contradicting the infallible doctrine of BOB/D.

As you may have been able to deduce (i.e. read) from subsequent posts, the implications vis-a-vis BoD is that Vatican I thereby condemns the application of BoD to infidels, pagans, Muslims, Jews, etc.

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Enjoy snack time and nap time. I really have fond memories of those from when I was in kindergarten.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:35:13 PM »

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Yes, you clearly missed it, because you obviously have zero theological training and have not even the slightest competence to discuss such matters, much less to be blogging about them online.

The implications of the quote are obvious, if you can speak English and have basic analytical skills.

Again with the desperate false accusations. The actions of a defeated man.

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Vatican I is saying that supernatural faith (as opposed to natural knowledge) REQUIRES (by definition) a supernatural object, i.e. one which can ONLY be known by revelation.

Feel free to tell me something I do not know.

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This rules out saying that it's sufficient for supernatural faith to believe in a truth that can be known by natural reason (i.e. the existence of a rewarder God).

According to you. I am aware that the existence of God can be deduced by reason alone. But this is also so in regards to His rewarding good and punishing evil? Can you show me where it is asserted that knowing God and rewards good and punishes evil is not a matter of supernatural faith and even if it was this would merely convince those on the fence to go with the majority opinion that we must also believe in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity for BOB/D to be possible.

So how does this refute the infallible doctrine of BOB/D which you deny?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #32 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:37:36 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
I'm not sure how one can assume or wish the above proves anything in regards to contradicting the infallible doctrine of BOB/D.

As you may have been able to deduce (i.e. read) from subsequent posts, the implications vis-a-vis BoD is that Vatican I thereby condemns the application of BoD to infidels, pagans, Muslims, Jews, etc.

Quote

Enjoy snack time and nap time. I really have fond memories of those from when I was in kindergarten.

I'm sorry I don't generally read your posts. I truly do not try to deduce anything from your posts or those of some others who have clearly been proven to be in grave error and a danger to the faith of others. No offense intended. Continue sleeping my friend. :cheers:

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #33 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:46:33 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Ladislaus

Obviously in the case of a Protestant, this transition to loss of faith is more nebulous and only God knows at exactly what point it happens. As we know, children (even Catholic children) have vague notions regarding the Faith even after they have reached the age of reason, so the exact point at which they may have embraced an ideology that cannot yield supernatural faith (i..e Protestantism) remains unclear.

What about this infallible statement?

* Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

"We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff".

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

The Protestant is not subject to the Roman Pontiff. He is baptized and therefore will not be damned on account of original sin, but even he were not to commit any other sin during his life, he is not member of the Catholic Church, meaning not part of Christ, and thus unable to enter Heaven.

According to this, he cannot be saved, even if he had and Act of Perfect Contrition. Unless he expressly wished to be part of the Catholic Church at the moment of death? I wonder how would that work?.

If he is not bad willed and he is following the natural law to the best of his ability, has supernatural faith and perfect charity and is in a state of sanctifying grace he has an implicit desire to do all that is necessary such as formerly join the Church which means being subject to the Roman Pontiff. That is why it is called Baptism of "Desire".

It is alot of ifs BTW. The Catholic infallible doctrine on BOD/B is not teaching universal salvation here. Anything but. It is just realistic, logical and Divinely protected from erring when it teaches this infallible truth. As actual members we merely have to be subject to it and accept it.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #34 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:52:15 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Is the teaching on last minute "Act of Perfect Contrition" even infallible?

I am very interested in learning this because then this would necessarily mean an exception to the Sacrament of Penance.

Can someone point out to me a reliable source I can read about "Act of Perfect Contrition" right before death? Obviously if this were an infallible truth, it could only be remotely possible for Baptized people (non Catholic Christians: protestants and schimatics).

Hopefully someone can point this out to you. A perfect act of contrition is possible. But very unlikely for the hardened sinner. Those of good will who tried their best to follow the natural law is a different story according to Saint Alponsus. Members within the Church should never depend on this or a death-bed conversion. God is not mocked. And our souls are not a game. But it is possible. And if one did make a perfect act of contrition on his death bed and recovered he would be obligated to go to sacramental Confession.

But again the hardened sinner or habitual sinner better not depend on this. According to Aquinas his heart can be hardened and by the time he dies he may not even realize he is culpable of mortal sin and since God is not mocked he may have a sudden and tragic death where he won't have time for a perfect act of contrition. And according to Alphonsus such a person is not likely to be truly sorry for his sin at death for love of God but merely for fear of Hell and this will not save him.

But again a perfect act of contrition is possible but like BOB/D we do not know who benefits from such possibilities we merely know of the possibility.