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Author Topic: Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith  (Read 11124 times)

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Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2014, 09:49:19 AM »
In the matter of explicit and implicit faith in Christ, the Church allows Her theologians, and also Her other children who learn about these matters, to advance arguments and proofs in favor of their theological perspective, to convince others of the truth of one position over the other, so long as they do not call those who disagree heretics.

It is the same, for example, with Thomism and Molinism (on the controversies on free will and grace). Thomists think their position is better supported by the Second Council of Orange and that of Trent, as well as Scripture, Tradition and theological reason, and are entirely free to argue the same, in favor of their cause. But they are not free to call the Molinists heretics, because the Church has permitted Molinism. The same should be our rule here.

But in doing this, Catholics are obliged to respect those who are teachers of the faith, to revere and accept universal Catechisms and other works pertaining to the ordinary magisterium of the Church, must not discard the universal consensus of theologians regarding truths taught by the Magisterium etc. Sacred theology is not a private enterprise where any man believes and teaches whatever he likes, with no regard for what other theologians teach, especially when these are approved and authorized by the Church for use in Her seminaries etc.

Quote from: Ladislaus
In order for us to know a supernatural truth with the certainty of faith, our formal motive must have the certainty of faith


True, but what you are calling the formal motive of faith for the Protestant is the authority of Scripture. Now, is it really necessary that private interpretation of Scripture in itself be capable as a practical rule of engendering infallible certitude (we are agreed that, as such, it is not), or is it sufficient that Scripture itself contain truths of infallible certainty?

I would say, if we follow the Doctors, it seems clear that the latter suffices, when the person in question is invincibly ignorant of the true rule of Faith. (i.e. He is invincibly ignorant that Scripture tells him to be subject to the Church, but is internally willing to be subject to everything Scripture says, and so in God's eyes is willing to be subject to the Church)

I enlisted the two conditions necessary and sufficient to make an act of faith, Ladislaus, if you think more are required, can you enlist conditions necessary and sufficient for the same? I don't think you will be able to do that, because in the case of invincible ignorance of the rule of Faith, mistaking the authority of Scripture as the "formal motive of faith" suffices to make an act of faith.

So, which nominal Protestants are heretics, and which are not Protestants, but really Christians in good faith? It is only if a man is unwilling to believe all that is contained in what is inculpably recognized as his "formal motive of faith", then he becomes a heretic.

Of such a man, St. Augustine says,
Quote
"Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."


Now, the man who is such is indeed a heretic.

You have no argument from me that the rule of faith for the Protestant is inherently defective. Indeed, it is, which is why the person in good faith who is sufficiently instructed on this, will see that Christianity is impossible without a visible Church, and become Catholic.

We've seen that this view is supported by many authorities, ancient and modern, I will show more specifically that (1) Authority of Scripture can suffice for a formal motive of faith, in one invincibly ignorant of what is truly such (2) Material heresy is possible in the adherents of a heretical sect, in the next post

Please explain also, if it is as you say, how it is possible that the authorities are of a different mind on this question than you. Remember there is Canon Law and Catechisms to account for, and more in fact, as I will come to.

Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2014, 09:54:02 AM »
Even though St. Thomas proves that the authority of the Church is the only real, true and workable rule of Faith, he nonetheless in treating belief of the secondary articles of faith says these can be believed
Quote
"only implicitly, or to be ready to believe them, in so far as he is prepared to believe whatever is contained in the Divine Scriptures"


Likewise, St. Augustine after saying what we saw earlier, immediately continues,
Quote
"... such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you"
hence he makes it evident that even a man in a separated sect can be in material heresy.

Hence (1) and (2) above.

I'd like to state three more principles in particular, please tell me where precisely you disagree.  

(i) Material heresy of the secondary objects of faith, being a privation in the intellect alone, [lacking the form of pertinacity in the will] is not a sin, and has no internal effect,

(ii) A person who is "guilty" of only material heresy in this way still has supernatural faith, he has not even lost grace. Consequently, he has not ceased to be a Christian, and to be inside the Church, whose child he remains.

(iii) Material heresy is possible in the adherents of separated sects.

Moreover, theologians also point out it seems certain that according to the mind of the Church, some of those separated from the Apostolic See, and this is true in particular of those in schismatic sects, are in good faith. For this reason, they can be called Christians, whereas if they were guilty, they could not, and would only be called schismatics, or heretics, as indeed others are.

For example, Pius IX and Benedict XV refer expressly to them as Christians, although separated from the Apostolic See, a separation of course that is only material. Most of the Popes also, while referring to the leaders of the schismatic sects with greater severity, nonetheless frankly treat the faithful attached to them as being invincibly ignorant, therefore not guilty of the sin of heresy or schism, and therefore Christians.

She thus makes it evident Her condemnations are of those who remain stubbornly separated from Her, even as Her exhortations to return to the only true fold are to all. So, then, according to the mind and will of these same Pontiffs, some of these are certainly Christians in good faith i.e. in merely material heresy. They are sometimes called in other Magisterial docuмents "separated children of the Apostolic See" etc.

Pius Ix wrote, "We send this Letter of Ours to all the Christians from whom We are separated, with which We exhort them warmly and beseech them with insistence to hasten to return to the one fold of Christ"

And Benedict XV, "it concerns Us greatly, that Christians who have, unfortunately, withdrawn from the Catholic Religion should at length be recalled to Us as to a forsaken Mother"


Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2014, 10:03:11 AM »
The minority view was never condemned because they were more than bloggers like you, stubborn or bowler.  You do not believe the theologians who teach the view and all the Saints and doctors who admit it is a possible view are aware of the fact that the existence of God can be arrived at by reason alone?  Give them some credit.  

So everyone believes that God exists does so through natural deduction in the way Thomas presents.  TV and all the other nonsense does not prevent them from thinking on these things and no one at all believes in God because of divine revelation apart from deductions they make on their own through natural reason. Can you show me where VI teaches this?  Can you show where anyone teaches this?

Explain to me why the Church never condemned the view that only the two beliefs are necessary?  Again, like most anti-boders you put yourself above the Church.  

If the non-condemned alternate view is so condemnable why has the Church never condemned it?


Because it is not Ladislaus.  

Offline Ladislaus

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Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2014, 10:18:34 AM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Can you show me where VI teaches this?


I did.  It's the OP in this thread.  Address the syllogism I presented about this or please get off the thread.  Your gratuitous assertions to the contrary are not helpful towards any rational discussion.  I have duly noted that you do not believe this.  You do not need to keep interjecting in this thread only to reiterate your beliefs.  If you want to discuss the topic of the OP, then you are more than welcome to do so.  But if you just want to post every page or so that you gratuitously reject it, then please get off the thread.  You refused to answer the question about why it's OK for you to think that it's possible St. Thomas got this wrong.

Offline Ladislaus

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Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2014, 10:20:45 AM »
Quote from: Nishant
(iii) Material heresy is possible in the adherents of separated sects.


I'll come back to a fuller discussion, Nishant, but here is where I disagree.  I'll get into more detail when I have more time.