Author Topic: Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith (Read 11089 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #40 on:** April 09, 2014, 02:21:42 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

You do not deny BOB/D completely?

That's not the topic of this thread. BoB/BoD can mean about half a dozen different things depending on how one defines it or extends it.

What I'm doing on this thread is to show that the extension of BoD for salvation to pagans, infidels, Muslims, Jews, etc. is condemned and cannot be held by Catholics.

Cantarella · « **Reply #41 on:** April 09, 2014, 02:23:06 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Cantarella
The Protestant is not subject to the Roman Pontiff. He is baptized and therefore will not be damned on account of original sin, but even he were not to commit any other sin during his life, he is not member of the Catholic Church, meaning not part of Christ, and thus unable to enter Heaven.

Baptism renders people subject to the Roman Pontiff (which, on a separate note in which I do not want to digress, is one of the strongest argument against BoD for catechumens). He would cease to be a member once he ceased to profess the Catholic Faith or professed something other than the Catholic Faith.

So everything boils down to: Can the Protestant or Orthodox have a last minute Perfect Act of Contrition and thus be saved?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #42 on:** April 09, 2014, 02:25:26 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

LoT, explain to me again why you reject and don't follow the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Incarnation are required for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation?

In the hopes that you will answer whether you reject BOB/D completely or not I will try.

The Church herself leaves the question unresolved. That is the only reason why. The point you make is well taken and cannot be denied. Especially if we can know through reason alone that God is also the rewarder of good and punisher of evil which I do not deny.

But we may be missing something that some theologians did not miss. The Church has not condemned their view and neither can I. I say this not taking a position either way because I simply do not know. You make a strong case for the majority view but the Church has not condemned the minority view.

Following the Divine Law as best as possible, perfect charity and sanctifying grace cannot be obtained apart from supernatural faith, the issue has not been settled by the Church so it is not settled in my mind either.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #43 on:** April 09, 2014, 02:34:23 PM »

Quote

Baptism renders people subject to the Roman Pontiff. He would cease to be a member once he ceased to profess the Catholic Faith or professed something other than the Catholic Faith.

Agreed.

You can't lose the faith until you consciously reject a part of it. A validly baptized person, with a protestant baptizer and protestant parents is Catholic until he rejects some aspect of the faith.

There is BOB/D and there is a Confession of desire. And even a spiritual Communion or Communion of desire in a manner of speaking. Of course none of the above take the place of the real sacraments and those who refuse to avail themselves of them despite being aware of their necessity will not be saved.

This is why there are "two sets of rules" for the those below the age of reason and those above and for those inculpable ignorant who have all the other prerequisites and those who are not. God judges the heart. We left the Mosiac law, where people go through the motions, doting the i's and crossing their t's while leaving their heart behind, some time ago.

God can sanctify the soul apart from water. He does not damn or save unjustly. He is perfectly Just (and Merciful).

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #44 on:** April 09, 2014, 02:37:30 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
You do not deny BOB/D completely?

That's not the topic of this thread. BoB/BoD can mean about half a dozen different things depending on how one defines it or extends it.

What I'm doing on this thread is to show that the extension of BoD for salvation to pagans, infidels, Muslims, Jews, etc. is condemned and cannot be held by Catholics.

So you won't affirm or deny. I take that as an affirmation. Welcome. :cheers:

I'm am not afraid to state my beliefs plainly nor to be legitimately corrected and informed. I'm sure your not afraid either but I am trying to figure out why you will not state your beliefs either way on the BOB/D thread.