Author Topic: Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith (Read 11080 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:08:53 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Who teaches this? Anyway, the fact that a validly baptized child has the infused virtue of faith means that he can only lose it by an personal act.

Wrong. In "adults", i.e. those who have reached the age of reason, explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity is necessary in order to have supernatural faith and therefore salvation. I even took that off the table when in the example I said the child was raised an atheist, so that he didn't even have any explicit belief in the existence of God.

SJB · « **Reply #26 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:14:51 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Vatican I
The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith. Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It your opinion, Ladi. You said it yourself.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:17:12 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Vatican I
The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith. Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It your opinion, Ladi. You said it yourself.

Until I found that quote.

Address the actual substance of the quote or else get off the thread.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:20:51 PM »

This was a nice thread and now risks getting derailed into broader BoD issues.

I was enjoying the discussion with Nishant until the usual suspects jumped on with their usual non-answers.

I'll spin off other thread topics based on various things that have come up during this thread, but let's stick to analyzing the quote in the OP.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** April 09, 2014, 01:25:19 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Is it just me or did I miss the part where it denies the infallible doctrine of BOB/D.

Yes, you clearly missed it, because you obviously have zero theological training and have not even the slightest competence to discuss such matters, much less to be blogging about them online.

The implications of the quote are obvious, if you can speak English and have basic analytical skills.

Vatican I is saying that supernatural faith (as opposed to natural knowledge) REQUIRES (by definition) a supernatural object, i.e. one which can ONLY be known by revelation. This rules out saying that it's sufficient for supernatural faith to believe in a truth that can be known by natural reason (i.e. the existence of a rewarder God).