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Author Topic: Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith  (Read 11073 times)

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Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 10:26:21 AM »
Nice. Likewise, Lad, it's a pleasure having a discussing with you.

Before we go on to more specifics, I'm presuming you would disagree with this authoritative explanation of the Baltimore Catechism? Bowler just posted it in another thread.

Please tell me yes or no, and we'll go further.

Quote
The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics orginally published in 1891
by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead
from Lesson 11: On the Church
* 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

If he was  validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act?

What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

Offline Ladislaus

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Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 12:32:49 PM »
Yes, I disagree with it.  I'll try to get into why when I have some more time later.


Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 12:42:41 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus


Obviously in the case of a Protestant, this transition to loss of faith is more nebulous and only God knows at exactly what point it happens.  As we know, children (even Catholic children) have vague notions regarding the Faith even after they have reached the age of reason, so the exact point at which they may have embraced an ideology that cannot yield supernatural faith (i..e Protestantism) remains unclear.  


What about this infallible statement?

* Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

"We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff".

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

The Protestant is not subject to the Roman Pontiff. He is baptized and therefore will not be damned on account of original sin, but even he were not to commit any other sin during his life, he is not member of the Catholic Church, meaning not part of Christ, and thus unable to enter Heaven.

According to this, he cannot be saved, even if he had and Act of Perfect Contrition. Unless he expressly wished to be part of the Catholic Church at the moment of death? I wonder how would that work?.

Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 12:46:20 PM »
Is the teaching on last minute "Act of Perfect Contrition" even infallible?

I am very interested in learning this because then this would necessarily mean an exception to the Sacrament of Penance.

Can someone point out to me a reliable source I can read about "Act of Perfect Contrition" right before death? Obviously if this were an infallible truth, it could only be remotely possible for Baptized people (non Catholic Christians: protestants and schimatics).

Offline SJB

Vatican I on the object of supernatural faith
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 12:48:43 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Very good, Nishant.  You know that I've excluded you very specifically from those I think are being dishonest about this issue.  You seem here to accept the need for explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the mysteries of the Incarnation for salvation.  To me that's a major step ... in the right direction.

I'll come back to the specifics of your post later today.


I've said this many times, yet one must admit the opposing view is not condemned. You say it is condemned, but that is on your own authority, which isn't any kind of authority at all.