I'm not sure that saying something CAN be known through natural reason excludes supernatural faith.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Is it just me or did I miss the part where it denies the infallible doctrine of BOB/D.

Yes, you clearly missed it, because you obviously have zero theological training and have not even the slightest competence to discuss such matters, much less to be blogging about them online.

The implications of the quote are obvious, if you can speak English and have basic analytical skills.

Vatican I is saying that supernatural faith (as opposed to natural knowledge) REQUIRES (by definition) a supernatural object, i.e. one which can ONLY be known by revelation.  This rules out saying that it's sufficient for supernatural faith to believe in a truth that can be known by natural reason (i.e. the existence of a rewarder God).

Surely, somebody has explained this. Please quote them or get out.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Vatican I

The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith.  Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It confirms the unanimous opinion of the Fathers (considered infallible) as expounded in the ancient Athanasian Creed, it was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and it was clearly infallible decreed at the Council of Florence:


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”



Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
 3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
 5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
 6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
 7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
 8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
 9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
 10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
 11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
 12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
 13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
 14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
 15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
 16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
 17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
 18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
 19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
 20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
 21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
 22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
 23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
 24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
 25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
 26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
 27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
 30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
 31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
 32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
 33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
 34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
 35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
 36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
 37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
 38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
 39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
 40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
 41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
 42. and shall give account of their own works.
 43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.  


St. Thomas Aquinas:

 St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

 Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

And then the idiot bowler quotes his own post to prove once again he is lost in the forest.

Quote from: SJB

Listen Ladi, you are arrogant and way too proud to admit you don't have any sources other than yourself. So cut the crap and quit whining about "I started the thread" and back up what you say. I don't think you can, that's why I'll continue to demand you docuмent your positions.

I agree with bowler.  You need to go have a beer or something.  You are a very bitter and angry man.

I am not aware of any commentary on this passage, nor do I have the library you seem to have.  If you have a quote that understands this passage differently than how it actually reads, then YOU produce it.  I'm simply looking at the passage at face value and reading it word for word.  You are obviously not competent to engage in any theological discussion whatsoever.  Instead you just bark in on every page with some insult or demand for proof.  Again, if you want to interpret this passage away to mean something OTHER than it actually says, then the burden of proof is on you.  If I were to cite the dogmatic pronouncement of Pius IX that Our Lady was conceived without original sin, you would demand that I prove that this passage didn't mean that Our Lady was conceived WITH original sin.  Go get a life.

If everyone would put you two (SJB & Ambrose) on HIDE in this thread, they would miss NOTHING!