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Author Topic: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation  (Read 927 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
« on: December 15, 2021, 09:10:21 AM »
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    • Quote
    Ladislaus wrote:
    There's also a little-known passage in Vatican I which teaches that the object of supernatural faith is something that can ONLY be known by Revelation.  Rewarder God CAN (and should) be known through natural reason.
    When you have time, can you explain this further, embellish on this quote and how it applies to the EENS?
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
    « Reply #1 on: December 15, 2021, 09:29:56 AM »
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    • The quote should have read :

    Ladislaus wrote:

    There's also a little-known passage in Vatican I which teaches that the object of supernatural faith is something that can ONLY be known by Revelation.  Rewarder God CAN (and should) be known through natural reason.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
    « Reply #2 on: December 15, 2021, 09:43:08 AM »
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    • OK.  I can find the relevant Vatican I quote at some point when I have more time later.

    Basially, Vatican I states that the object of supernatural faith must be truths that can ONLY be known from Revelation.

    Things like the existence of God and that He is a Rewarder/Punisher not only can be but even should be known through natural reason.  So if the only thing you believe is Rewarder God, since it CAN be known through natural reason, does not suffice for supernatural faith.

    This means that you have to believe in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation (revealed truths) vs. just having to believe in the existence of a Rewarder God.

    See, according to Rewarder God theory, people have supernatural faith in the Rewarder God.  But Vatican I rules that out.  I can't have supernatural faith in the existence of God.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
    « Reply #3 on: December 15, 2021, 10:01:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 15, 2021, 09:43:08 AM

    OK.  I can find the relevant Vatican I quote at some point when I have more time later.

    Basially, Vatican I states that the object of supernatural faith must be truths that can ONLY be known from Revelation.

    Things like the existence of God and that He is a Rewarder/Punisher not only can be but even should be known through natural reason.  So if the only thing you believe is Rewarder God, since it CAN be known through natural reason, does not suffice for supernatural faith.

    This means that you have to believe in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation (revealed truths) vs. just having to believe in the existence of a Rewarder God.

    See, according to Rewarder God theory, people have supernatural faith in the Rewarder God.  But Vatican I rules that out.  I can't have supernatural faith in the existence of God.

    Interestingly, this holds as to God's truth and His will, both of which have supernatural aspects that can only be know by revelation from Him:

    Quote
    Furthermore, it is disingenuous for Fr. Most to claim that Thomists haven’t proven that God reprobates before foreseen demerits.44 Thomists take this position based on St. Paul’s teaching in Romans 9, which Fr. Most simply dismisses. In fact, St. Thomas directs us to understand God’s will by going to Scripture: “For such things as spring from God’s will, and beyond the creature’s due, can be made known to us only through being revealed in Sacred Scripture, in which the Divine Will is made known to us.”


    Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 54). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.  


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
    « Reply #4 on: December 15, 2021, 10:56:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on December 15, 2021, 10:01:23 AM

    Interestingly, this holds as to God's truth and His will, both of which have supernatural aspects that can only be know by revelation from Him:


    I looked it up also at some point, and the fact of natural justice, a God Who rewards good and punishes evil is a naturally-knowable truth.  I think the key phrase in that passage above is "beyond the creature's due" ... meaning super-natural things.  Rewarding good and punishing evil is a natural thing not by any means beyond a creature's due.
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    Offline Dionysus

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    Re: Vat I - object of supernatural faith ONLY known by Revelation
    « Reply #5 on: December 15, 2021, 11:08:43 AM »
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    • Chapter 3
    On faith

    1. Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their creator and lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith.

    2. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.

    3. Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

    4. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.
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    People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
    Blaise Pascal, De l'art de persuader
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