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Author Topic: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB  (Read 5185 times)

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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2018, 03:22:24 AM »
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  • Omnes pro Christo


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #46 on: July 24, 2018, 05:59:53 AM »
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  • Actually study the problem instead of running away crying and pouting like a baby.

    St. Alphonsus cited a letter from one of the Pope Innocents as proof that BoD was de fide ... misconstruing the authority of the letter.  In a very similar letter, another Pope states that someone who is saved by BoD enters heaven "without delay" after their death.  Yet St. Alphonsus speculated, contrary to this papal teaching, that those who are saved by BoD do NOT have all the temporal punishment due to sin remitted, and thus would tarry in Purgatory for some time.  So he contradicts papal teaching that, according to his own standards, would make his theory heretical.

    St. Alphonsus was not infallible, period, regardless of the flowery language used by Pope Gregory XVI.  Quite a few theologians disagree with a number of his conclusions regarding moral theology.
    You do realize that Mithrandylan did not say that Saint Alphonsus was infallible, right?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #47 on: July 24, 2018, 09:48:41 AM »
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  • You do realize that Mithrandylan did not say that Saint Alphonsus was infallible, right?

    No, he simply cited a passage out of context from Gregory XVI implying precisely that.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #48 on: July 24, 2018, 09:57:24 AM »
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  • No, he simply cited a passage out of context from Gregory XVI implying precisely that.
    .
    You're the one quoting out of context.  I was directly responding to Pax Vobis's prima facie dismissal of St. Alphonsus and his elevation of fake monastics with a financial stake in baptism of desire as a better way to learn the truthThat was the source of my disinterest.  If you want to debate some point, you at least need to agree on the sort of evidence that would weigh in on the question. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #49 on: July 24, 2018, 10:09:12 AM »
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  • No, he simply cited a passage out of context from Gregory XVI implying precisely that.
    The Church gave us a Saint and Doctor to follow with complete safety. Sorry, but your opinion and the opinion of the D’s carry no weight.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #50 on: July 24, 2018, 10:53:12 AM »
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  • The Church gave us a Saint and Doctor to follow with complete safety.

    And I've never disputed your right to follow the teaching of a Doctor of the Church (except when something they held was countermanded by the Church) ... e.g. St. Thomas on the Immaculate Conception, etc.

    But most of you do not follow him on all points but are in fact Pelagian heretics who deny EENS.  You don't really care about traditional BoD but about undermining EENS and Tridentine ecclesiology.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #51 on: July 24, 2018, 11:14:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    I was directly responding to Pax Vobis's prima facie dismissal of St. Alphonsus and his elevation of fake monastics with a financial stake in baptism of desire as a better way to learn the truth.
    And I was simply CORRECTING your view of St Alphonsus to the proper level - that he is a supreme saint which we should imitate in virtue, but not always theology.
    Quote
    The Church gave us a Saint and Doctor to follow with complete safety.
    The Church teaches that only the pope is infallible, and only under certain circuмstances.  No Saint/Doctor is infallible.  That's absurd.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #52 on: July 24, 2018, 11:33:55 AM »
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  • The Church gave us a Saint and Doctor to follow with complete safety. Sorry, but your opinion and the opinion of the D’s carry no weight.
    Can. 4:  Si quis dixerit sacramenta novae legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua; et sine eis aut eorum voto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam justificationis adipisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria non siut, anathema sit."

    The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto). - Saint Alphonsus Liguori

    From:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Dublin, 1846.)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #53 on: July 24, 2018, 10:28:24 PM »
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  • .
    Here is an exchange found among the 138 Comments under a video of +Williamson published in 2016. Jacob Snell offers as an answer a text he claims was part of the schema composed by ABL (which was later abandoned by the liberals in power at Vat.II) and replaced with the Vat.II docuмents we have today (the numbers 1-13 seem to be for footnotes which were not supplied):
    .
    Question:

    PhilipHowardMedia   1 year ago
    "Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No" How is that not heretical? Protestants, Muslims etc are saved? He then explains the dogma away.

    Answer:

    Jacob Snell  1 year ago
    +PhilipHowardMedia He continues, "The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the Truth." The Church has never believed that those that are not formal converts can be saved in a number known only to God. To believe that no Protestant, Jєω, Moslem, Buddhist, or Hindu can receive baptism of desire or of blood is to believe a heresy called Feeneyism, which was condemned by the Holy Office under Pius XII and John XXIII. 
    .
    Question:

    PhilipHowardMedia  1 year ago (edited)
    Jacob Snell But if they are saved by a mystery only known to God they would not be a Protestant, a Muslim etc etc and that is the problem here. Saved in their religion? Does that not mean they are outside the Church?
    .
    Answer:

    Jacob Snell  1 year ago
    They are saved by receiving the grace of baptism through an implicit desire without an explicit desire. The schema for Vatican II authored primarily by Archbishop Lefebvre and Cardinal Ottaviani had this to say:

    "8. The Holy Synod teaches, as God's Holy Church has always taught, that the Church is necessary for salvation1
    and that no one can be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by God through Jesus Christ, nevertheless refuses to enter her or to persevere in her.2
    Just as no one can be saved except by receiving baptism--by which anyone who does not pose some obstacle to incorporation3
    becomes a member of the Church--or at least by desire for baptism,4
    so also no one can attain salvation unless he is a member of the Church or at least is ordered towards the Church by desire. But for anyone to attain to salvation, it is not enough that he be really a member of the Church or be by desire ordered towards it; it is also required that he die in the state of grace, joined to God by faith, hope, and charity.5

    "9. Although many real relations exist in the juridical6
    and sacramental order, and indeed can exist in the mystical order,7
    by which every baptized person is linked with the Church, still, according to the most ancient tradition, only they are called members of the Church in the true and proper sense in whom the Church, one and indivisible, indefectible and infallible, comes together in unity of faith, sacraments and government. They, therefore, are truly and properly to be said to be members of the Church who, washed in the bath of regeneration, professing the true Catholic faith, and acknowledging the authority of the Church,8
    are joined in its visible structure9
    to its Head, Christ, who rules it through his Vicar,10
    and have not been cut off from the structure of the Mystical Body because of very serious offences.11
    As for those ordered by desire towards the Church, these include not only catechumens,12
    who, moved by the Spirit, consciously and explicitly desire to enter the Church, but also those who, even if not knowing that the Catholic Church is the true and sole Church of Christ, still, by God's grace, implicitly and unknowingly desire the equivalent,13
    either because they sincerely will what Christ himself wills or because, though ignorant of Christ, they sincerely desire to fulfill the will of God their Creator. The gifts of heavenly grace will never be wanting to those who sincerely desire and ask to be renewed by the divine light."

    God is just and does not condemn those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ or his Church. 
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #54 on: July 24, 2018, 11:03:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    To believe that no Protestant, Jєω, Moslem, Buddhist, or Hindu can receive baptism of desire or of blood is to believe a heresy called Feeneyism, which was condemned by the Holy Office under Pius XII and John XXIII. 
    .





    None of this Catholic sources where speculative Baptism of Desire may appear are referring to Protestants, Jєωs, Moslems, Buddhist, or Hindus. All of them without exception are simply referring to the dying unfortunate catechumen (which already possesses the Faith of Christ and His Church; but dies desiring the water Baptism)

    And Baptism of Blood is a completely different issue, which is basically martyrdom for the Faith of Christ and His Church.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #55 on: July 25, 2018, 12:17:08 AM »
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  • The Church has been infiltrated by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ over the last two centuries and as Br. Francis Maluf wisely remarked in one of his meditations on the secret society, “We are the Church militant. That means that a war is on. How can a man be a soldier of Jesus Christ if he knows neither the enemy nor the issue.”

    The 1789 French Declaration of the Rights of Man contains the following article: “No one may be disturbed for his opinions, even religious ones, provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law.” Anyone who has spent even a minimal amount of time studying the French philosophes would know that when it came to religion, dogma is what they expressed a hatred for more than anything else. They hated the “bigotry” and “intolerance” that follows from Catholics believing with absolute certainty that the dogmas which the Church proposes as divinely revealed are infallibly true.

    One of their principal aims has been to attempt to reduce religion in the minds of men to a matter of mere opinion. All who reject dogma as the rule of faith necessarily aid them in their conspiracy. The Freemasons hate dogma in general but there is, of course, a particular dogma of the faith that bothers them more than all the others: the dogma about which Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote the following in The Social Contract, “But whoever dares to say: Outside the Church there is no salvation, ought to be driven from the State.”

    .
    Whenever the Freemasons conduct a ritual where they ridicule a Catholic pope, there is one Pope in particular they use, as if by default. And it seems their reason is not so much the person of this pope as it is what this particular Pope represents. For he is the one whose name (Pope Boniface VIII in Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302) is attached to the second of the 3 ex cathedra dogmatic definitions of EENS. 

    Namely
    “We declare, say, define, and pronounce 
    that it is absolutely necessary 
    for the salvation of every human creature 
    to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
    .
    .
    Sedevacantists likewise find this fact rather inconvenient.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #56 on: July 25, 2018, 12:22:45 AM »
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  • None of [these] Catholic sources where speculative Baptism of Desire may appear are referring to Protestants, Jєωs, Moslems, Buddhist, or Hindus. All of them without exception are simply referring to the dying unfortunate catechumen (which already possesses the Faith of Christ and His Church; but dies desiring the water Baptism)

    And Baptism of Blood is a completely different issue, which is basically martyrdom for the Faith of Christ and His Church.
    .
    I have yet to see any convincing explanation that shows how anyone who dies as a Protestant, Jєω, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, can die subject to the Roman Pontiff.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #57 on: July 25, 2018, 12:52:54 AM »
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  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce
    that it is absolutely necessary
    for the salvation of every human creature
    to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”



    In his work Contra Errores Graecorum (Against the Greeks), the Angelic Doctor has an exclusive chapter on this very point:

    St Thomas said in Chapter 38:

    Quote
    Quod subesse Romano pontifici sit de necessitate salutisCHAPTER 38
    That to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation.
    Ostenditur etiam quod subesse Romano pontifici sit de necessitate salutis. Dicit enim Cyrillus in libro thesaurorum: itaque, fratres mei, sic Christum imitamur, ut ipsius oves vocem eius audiamus, manentes in Ecclesia Petri, et non inflemur vento superbiae, ne forte tortuosus serpens propter nostram contentionem nos eiiciat, ut Evam olim de Paradiso. Et Maximus in epistola Orientalibus directa dicit: coadunatam et fundatam super petram confessionis Petri dicimus universalem Ecclesiam secundum definitionem salvatoris, in qua necessario salutis animarum nostrum est manere, et ei est obedire, suam servantes fidem et confessionem.It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if you imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve. And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.”

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #58 on: July 25, 2018, 01:12:31 AM »
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  • .
    Cantarella, you're referring to things written by saints in previous centuries.

    The dogma to which I refer was given ex cathedra definition in A.D. 1302, while St. Thomas had died a quarter century before that. 
    .
    If he had lived after 1302, who knows what he would have written? Certainly he would have subjected himself and everything he wrote to the authority of the Pope. He also denied the Immaculate Conception, but that would not be defined until 1854, 6 centuries later. 
    .
    St. Thomas Aquinas had a vision in which he was so terrified of what he had written in his Summa Theologiae, that when he awoke he commanded his servant to burn his books in the fireplace. His servant, however, disobeyed, and therefore we have the Summa today.
    .
    So even the Angelic Doctor recognized his personal fallibility, and was willing to give up all his years of laborious study and authorship for the sake of doctrinal purity. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
    « Reply #59 on: July 25, 2018, 01:12:57 AM »
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  • Correct.  St. Alphonsus is using the term implicit narrowly.

    Explicit Desire for Baptism:  "I intend to be baptized." (note that votum is much more than a "desire" but is always loosely translated as such).
    Implicit Desire for Baptism:  "I want to become a Catholic." (intention to be baptized implicit in the intention to become Catholic)

    Now the modern heretics go, several steps removed, all the way down the line to ...
    Implicit Desire:  "I want to be a good person and do what God wants."
    .
    It seems to be a bit deeper than this. Modernists today go all the way down to ...
    Implicit Desire: "I have a vague longing for something good, and have an ambiguous hankering to do what some higher power, or the Great Architect of the Universe, would have me do, that is, if she exists."
    .
    In a YouTube video conference +W testifies that when ABL first arrived at a remote village in Africa, where the Catholic Faith had never been preached, he did not find the 6th and 9th Commandments to be prominent sins. Rather, he said, the most rampant problem was the sin of hate. He said that nearly everyone in the village confessed having a practically uncontrollable and abiding hatred for something or someone else in the village.
    .
    He (+W in the video) didn't take it to its logical conclusion, but I don't mind doing that. I ask:
    How can anyone, who has habitually practiced abiding hate for his neighbor while living in a culture where this hatred is the norm not the exception, and has never heard of the Catholic Faith, die while making a perfect act of contrition, which requires the virtue of perfect charity?
    .
    Baptism of desire presumes perfect charity, thereby perfect contrition, whereby justification without water baptism.
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