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Author Topic: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB  (Read 12138 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 09:00:24 PM »
St Alphonsus' theory is riddled with problems.  Read here:  https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/st-alphonsus-blatant-error-on-baptism-of-desire/#.W01MctVKiM8

St Alphonsus is not infallible.  Trent is.  Trent says the desire must be for baptism, to be justified, which means explicit desire.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 09:03:13 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2018, 08:29:38 PM
I never said I was.  I just said that I can see the argument and I understand St Thomas' logic (which he never said was certain, just speculation).  A person who is formally taking classes and planning on getting baptized, 1) desires EXPLICITY the faith, 2) is TAKING ACTION to get the faith, and 3) has made a COMMITMENT to the Church.  All other scenarios of BOD fail all 3 of those tests.  It makes no sense, logically or theologically, that they could be saved.  
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With respect Pax, I don't think you understand St. Thomas's logic at all.  You want to read ST III, Q 62 & 65. 
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Saint Thomas teaches that baptism of desire is possible because of the distinction in efficient causes of justification (principal and instrumental).  Metaphysically speaking (which is really what counts, after all), this distinction between efficient causes is the reason BoD is possible.  Now that very same logic is retained by Trent in describing the causes of justification, and it describes them just as St. Thomas did, and it does so right after saying that a desire for baptism may suffice to justify and after describing the sanctification process of a catechumen culminating in perfect charity before baptism.
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If Trent, as many contend, actually condemns BoD, it couldn't have picked a more awful patron of the Council!  It couldn't have picked a worse explanation of justification's causes than the very explanation that makes BoD possible in the first place. 
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As to the rest of what you said, I don't really know what to say except to read it over again and make sure that you've actually said what you want to.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 09:05:51 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2018, 09:00:24 PM
St Alphonsus' theory is riddled with problems.  Read here:  https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/st-alphonsus-blatant-error-on-baptism-of-desire/#.W01MctVKiM8

St Alphonsus is not infallible.  Trent is.  Trent says the desire must be for baptism, to be justified, which means explicit desire.
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Saint Alphonsus is "riddled with problems."  Here!  Read some fake monks to get the "real scoop" on what the Church teaches.
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I'm done.
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I'll leave you with this:
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"Although he wrote so vast a number of works, it has nevertheless been found, upon the strict examination which has been instituted in regard to them, that they may be read by the faithful without the least fear of finding the smallest error in them" (Pope Gregory XVI, Canonization Bull of St. Alphonsus, 1839).
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 09:09:43 PM »

Quote
Read some fake monks to get the "real scoop" on what the Church teaches.
If you're scared to challenge your views, then you're not intellectually honest.  Who cares who made the argument?  Just because a person is wrong in one area doesn't mean they're wrong in all areas.  The diamond bros aren't the only ones who point out the flaws of St Alphonsus' views.

p.s. the church has NEVER SAID that all writings of a saint are infallible.  That's ridiculous.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Traditional Groups the Reject BOD/BOB
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2018, 06:11:42 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2018, 09:09:43 PM
If you're scared to challenge your views, then you're not intellectually honest.  Who cares who made the argument?  Just because a person is wrong in one area doesn't mean they're wrong in all areas.  The diamond bros aren't the only ones who point out the flaws of St Alphonsus' views.

p.s. the church has NEVER SAID that all writings of a saint are infallible.  That's ridiculous.
This.

Whatever St. Thomas, the greatest theologian of all time taught, and whatever the other great saints taught, was over ruled by Trent, who, with the full authority of the Church's infallibility, explicitly decreed that 1) justification is attainable through the desire for the sacrament, 2) the sacrament is necessary for salvation, 3) what the matter of the sacrament of baptism is, 4) who may administer the sacrament, and 5) condemns those who say the sacrament is not necessary.

No matter what anyone wants to argue about the issue, even if the whole world wants to insist that salvation via a BOD is a doctrine of the Church, they have not only the above facts to contend with, they also must admit that the term a "baptism of desire" is not mentioned, defined nor is it found anywhere in any official Church docuŠ¼ents.

Although over the last century or two the error of a BOD, like the error of the NO (Modernism) has been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the Church, the trad groups who promote it do so in error based on the above facts.
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