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Author Topic: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle  (Read 9333 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
« on: May 20, 2024, 08:37:14 AM »
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  • I thought this was an interesting find today.

    St Andrew's Missal (1949) Commentary for today's Epistle reading (Monday after Pentecost):

    The Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles who listened to Peter; he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.  All men, therefore, without exception, can save their souls, but on the one condition of faith in Jesus Christ, imposed by almighty God, Judge of the living and the dead.  Through receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost these heathens belonged to the soul of the Church; upon being baptized they became members of its body.

    It appears that the gift of the Holy Ghost is different than baptism and comes before baptism.

    Is this "receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost" what is known as Baptism of Desire?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #1 on: May 20, 2024, 09:06:44 AM »
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  • Well, I've noticed a fair bit of Modernist stuff in the St. Andrew Missal, questioning various traditions, etc., the lives of the saints.

    There was a huge push for the "soul of the Church" theory (which Msgr. Fenton denounced as erroneous) with the intention of undermining EENS dogma.  Here's the thing about the Holy Ghost, namely, that the Holy Ghost is involved in EVERY one of the Sacraments and is also responsible for the actual graces received leading to one's conversion.  Holy Ghost is invoked for the Mass/transubstantiation, Holy Orders, Confirmation, and Baptism ... and also for various actual graces.  This pouring out of the Holy Ghost most likely refers to the Holy Ghost inspiring in them the good dispositions to accept what St. Peter was teaching and the intention to be baptized.  There's nothing more that can be read into it.  Clearly they weren't Confirmed here, since they weren't even baptized.  So what does an outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon them mean other than their receiving the graces for conversion?  Council of Trent clearly taught that the Holy Ghost is responsible for the actual graces that ultimately leads to justification even before justification.  Nowhere can it be inferred from this passage, nor from the Church Fathers' understanding thereof, that they were somehow now united to the "soul of the Church", a novelty which Msgr. Fenton (who believed in BoD, by the way) rejected and stated was also condemned by the teaching of Pope Pius XII.

    BTW, this is also the reason why the NO Rite of Holy Orders is doubtful.  There's an invocation of the Holy Ghost that's separated in the NO Rite from the sacramental effect of conferring the priesthood.  Since the Holy Ghost could be invoked for any number of reasons, including giving the priest the actual graces to faithfully carry out his vocation, it's unclear that the Holy Ghost is being invoked for the purpose of making the ordinand into a priest.  This is precisely what removing the Latin ut did.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #2 on: May 20, 2024, 09:30:48 AM »
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  • Well, I've noticed a fair bit of Modernist stuff in the St. Andrew Missal, questioning various traditions, etc., the lives of the saints.

    There was a huge push for the "soul of the Church" theory (which Msgr. Fenton denounced as erroneous) with the intention of undermining EENS dogma.  Here's the thing about the Holy Ghost, namely, that the Holy Ghost is involved in EVERY one of the Sacraments and is also responsible for the actual graces received leading to one's conversion.  Holy Ghost is invoked for the Mass/transubstantiation, Holy Orders, Confirmation, and Baptism ... and also for various actual graces.  This pouring out of the Holy Ghost most likely refers to the Holy Ghost inspiring in them the good dispositions to accept what St. Peter was teaching and the intention to be baptized.  There's nothing more that can be read into it.  Clearly they weren't Confirmed here, since they weren't even baptized.  So what does an outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon them mean other than their receiving the graces for conversion?  Council of Trent clearly taught that the Holy Ghost is responsible for the actual graces that ultimately leads to justification even before justification.  Nowhere can it be inferred from this passage, nor from the Church Fathers' understanding thereof, that they were somehow now united to the "soul of the Church", a novelty which Msgr. Fenton (who believed in BoD, by the way) rejected and stated was also condemned by the teaching of Pope Pius XII.

    BTW, this is also the reason why the NO Rite of Holy Orders is doubtful.  There's an invocation of the Holy Ghost that's separated in the NO Rite from the sacramental effect of conferring the priesthood.  Since the Holy Ghost could be invoked for any number of reasons, including giving the priest the actual graces to faithfully carry out his vocation, it's unclear that the Holy Ghost is being invoked for the purpose of making the ordinand into a priest.  This is precisely what removing the Latin ut did.
    Isn't this another way to describe Baptism of Desire? What would happen to any of these men if they did not actually get baptized (although it was clearly their intent)?

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #3 on: May 20, 2024, 09:48:37 AM »
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  • Before confirmation, the children must know the three basic truths in order for anyone to be saved. +W had a " Minimum Knowledge " sheet that the confirmands needed to know perfectly. I don't have that particular sheet in front of me right now, but a short paragraph on the sheet, near the end,  said something like this:

    1) There is one God, who created, who preserves and governs all things. God is a just Judge, who rewards the good and punishes the wicked. 2) In God there are three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost 3) The Second Person, Jesus Christ, became man and died on the cross to save us.

    In the OP. St Andrews missal says: heathens...??? !!!
    Epistle for Pentecost:  ...Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem J ews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    Already perhaps there was suspicious redacting in dem days ...

    Pray.




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    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #4 on: May 20, 2024, 09:54:10 AM »
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  • Isn't this another way to describe Baptism of Desire? What would happen to any of these men if they did not actually get baptized (although it was clearly their intent)?

    Baptism of Desire refers to justification before Baptism.  All we read in the Sacred Scriptures is that the Holy Ghost came down upon them.  We don't know what effect the Holy Ghost had from the text alone, whether it's actually justification or the actual graces that precede justification.  These are two separate things.  What would happen to them if they did not get baptized, let's say if they died right there, is unknown and cannot be determined from just the text alone.

    Actually, when defined as "justification before Baptism", Father Feeney also believed in that, just did not agree that it could lead to salvation without actual reception of the Sacrament.  Others disagree that there can be justification before Baptism. 

    But the ultimate point is that none of this can be read into the passage where the Holy Ghost was poured out on them.  We don't know what "effect" it had on them.  St. Andrew Missal is reading into it the effect, but the Holy Ghost can have effects upon them short of justification and prior to justification.  So, for instance, if we've lost the state of grace through mortal sin, even if we have not made an act of perfect contrition and therefore are not in a state of graces, even our inclination or desire to go to Confession is an effect of the Holy Ghost, even if it doesn't lead immediately to justification.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #5 on: May 20, 2024, 10:21:06 AM »
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  • And in the Vigil of Pentecost St. Paul, speaking to not-yet-baptized Catholics, asked, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"  The Latin is credentes, literally "those believing,"  formed from the active participle, if my Latin fails me not.  These baptized would-be-Catholics - and we call them "would-be-Catholics" because these disciples had received the Baptism of John, not the Catholic sacrament -  were "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus," and then they received Confirmation.  The point of all this is to say that they were called "disciples" or "believers" even before sacramental baptism.  These followers of St. John the Baptist believed all that was necessary for salvation, but still had to be incorporated into the Church through baptism. 

    The BOD crowd has told me repeatedly ad naseam about St. Emerentiana,  "but she was a catechumen, and she was stoned to death."  The believers, the credentes, may or may not be baptized.  People illogically assume that because she was a catechumen, she was therefore unbaptized.  And we say to them, your conclusion is false!     
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 12:30:28 PM »
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  • Jesus was baptized and confirmed by the Holy Ghost all one day. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 12:34:42 PM »
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  • The BOD crowd has told me repeatedly ad naseam about St. Emerentiana,  "but she was a catechumen, and she was stoned to death."  The believers, the credentes, may or may not be baptized.  People illogically assume that because she was a catechumen, she was therefore unbaptized.  And we say to them, your conclusion is false!   

    Absolutely correct.  There are historical docuмents that mandate the emergency Baptism of catechumens during times of persecution, but enjoining that they would remain in the status of catechumen in all other respects, and would retain the name, until they had finished the normal instruction.  Why would St. Emererentiana be engaging in such risky behavior during a persecution unless she had been Baptized under such provisions, though, despite the Baptism, she would remain a "catechumen" until she finished her instruction?

    But, if you read Trent the BoDer way, her martyrdom had absolutely nothing to do with her justification, since there's no such thing as BoB.  If she was saved, it was by her BoD.  That's one of the biggest arguments to debunk the BoDer reading of Trent.  If read their way, so that there's no justification without Baptism or the Desire, there's no such thing as a BoB that does not reduce to a BoD, and there would be no such thing as justification of infants by BoB (since they would have neither the Sacrament nor the Desire), thereby also debunking cases like the fallacious "Holy Innocents" argument.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #8 on: May 20, 2024, 05:49:58 PM »
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  • Baptism of Desire refers to justification before Baptism.  All we read in the Sacred Scriptures is that the Holy Ghost came down upon them.  We don't know what effect the Holy Ghost had from the text alone, whether it's actually justification or the actual graces that precede justification.  These are two separate things.  What would happen to them if they did not get baptized, let's say if they died right there, is unknown and cannot be determined from just the text alone.

    Actually, when defined as "justification before Baptism", Father Feeney also believed in that, just did not agree that it could lead to salvation without actual reception of the Sacrament.  Others disagree that there can be justification before Baptism. 

    But the ultimate point is that none of this can be read into the passage where the Holy Ghost was poured out on them.  We don't know what "effect" it had on them.  St. Andrew Missal is reading into it the effect, but the Holy Ghost can have effects upon them short of justification and prior to justification.  So, for instance, if we've lost the state of grace through mortal sin, even if we have not made an act of perfect contrition and therefore are not in a state of graces, even our inclination or desire to go to Confession is an effect of the Holy Ghost, even if it doesn't lead immediately to justification.
    I'm pretty sure the Dimonds made a video on this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Today's St Andrew's Missal Commentary on Epistle
    « Reply #9 on: May 20, 2024, 05:55:41 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure the Dimonds made a video on this.

    I think so too.  I was just summarizing for this thread.