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Author Topic: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?  (Read 4025 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
The sedes feel some interior motivation, or pressing, sometimes obsessive need to decide the popes' status -  ...

No, Stubborn, that's not it.  It's about resolving our consciences.  Sedevacantists in their conscience believe that one cannot break communion with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, and the only justification for being Traditional Catholics could only be that their status is at least doubtful.  If it were merely the person Jorge Bergoglio running around spouting heretical things, but the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church had remained Traditional and intact, no SV would give a hoot about his personal status as a Catholic, leaving that entirely for those above their pay grade, as it were, to decide.

This notion of Catholics being entitled to thumb their noses at the Papal Magisterium and at the Mass the Popes have promulgated is incredibly novel, and unprecedented in the history of Catholic theology.  THAT is the problem to which sedevacantists are responding.

+ABL --
Quote
a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved?

This grave problem is what SVs and all Traditional Catholics are struggling with, Stubborn.  And if, unlike +Lefebvre, you cannot see how this is a problem, then it's a sign that your R&R position has completely eroded your sensus Catholicus.  One would hope that you have enough sense left to at least acknowledge how this could be a problem for Catholics, regardless of the manner in which have decided to resolve it for yourself.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
This is why in the past many seminarians have entered the Traditional seminary as R&R but left (often before they were ordained) as sedevacantists.  As soon as they begin studying Catholic theology, and ecclesiology in particular, they realize how novel the notion of R&R really is, how there's no precedent for it in the history of Catholic theology.

"Hey, Pope. this New Mass of yours, well, no thanks."

"Hey, Pope and Council of Bishops, this teaching of yours, you can keep that too."

How far removed is that from Protestantism?


Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
No they're not, idiot.  SVs are Catholics who profess the Catholic faith and profess submission to the Holy Father (unlike the Orthodox, who do neither).  They have very grave reasons for questioning the legitimacy of the Vatican II papal claimants ... reasons rooted in Catholic theology, whether your agree with their application here or not.  If they are mistaken, they are only materially in schism ... no different than the Catholics who during the Great Western Schism sided with the wrong pope.  Those too were materially in error but formally still Catholic.

If anyone is in danger of losing his soul, it's someone like you.  You are a relentless apologist for Francis and for Vatican II, claiming that there's nothing essentially non-Catholic about them.  When questioned, you could articulate no reason why in conscience you had to choose SSPX over an organization like FSSP which is in full communion with the Vatican II hierarchy.  You cited only the size of their seminary and worldwide apostolate.  That is not sufficient reason for you to refuse full communion with the Vatican II hierarchy, and you are therefore in formal schism ... unlike the SV's who are either right or else in material schism only.
This^^^^^^

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
This is why in the past many seminarians have entered the Traditional seminary as R&R but left (often before they were ordained) as sedevacantists.  As soon as they begin studying Catholic theology, and ecclesiology in particular, they realize how novel the notion of R&R really is, how there's no precedent for it in the history of Catholic theology.

"Hey, Pope. this New Mass of yours, well, no thanks."

"Hey, Pope and Council of Bishops, this teaching of yours, you can keep that too."

How far removed is that from Protestantism?
Excellent!

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
No, Stubborn, that's not it.  It's about resolving our consciences.  Sedevacantists in their conscience believe that one cannot break communion with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, and the only justification for being Traditional Catholics could only be that their status is at least doubtful.  If it were merely the person Jorge Bergoglio running around spouting heretical things, but the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church had remained Traditional and intact, no SV would give a hoot about his personal status as a Catholic, leaving that entirely for those above their pay grade, as it were, to decide.
I understand it's about their consciences, but the concern which is affecting their conscience is itself at least problematic and likely self destructive - because not only is there  nothing they can do about the popes' status, and not only is there absolutely zero reason for even pursuing such a position, the Church teaches that to do what sedes are known to do, is an act of schism.  

+ABL put it clear enough - he is the pope but we do not follow him when he poses a danger to our faith. That is the principle we live by whether it concerns the pope our our own parents. That's it and that's all of it.