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Author Topic: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?  (Read 2349 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2019, 08:18:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on April 11, 2019, 07:57:06 AM
    When I said, "Maybe his memory was faulty." I should have said, "Maybe +Sanborn's memory was faulty." Does that clarify?
    Ah, ok, thanks sir.

    Sorry but every time this subject comes up, I relive those days a little. Because of those days prior him going sede and us leaving, I only have fond memories of the then Fr. Sanborn. He was my favorite priest for a very long time, even after we left. His pre-sede sermons were almost always very captivating, and it's with real sadness that I recall the memories of the cause of us, and many other families having to leave just as that chapel was beginning to grow. That little chapel was in a gymnasium, it started with probably 5 or 6 families and was up to maybe 25-30 families, then the split came, and bam, down to maybe 10 or so families.

    That is what sedeism does, that's what it's good for, division.  


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #31 on: April 11, 2019, 05:48:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on April 11, 2019, 07:44:45 AM
    Sedevacantists.

    Most of those names I never heard of. They came to nothing. That's what happens when you cut a branch off the main tree! Two of those names (Dolan, Cekada) I only know because of the huge scandal that broke there in 2009, discussed heavily on CathInfo at the time. Based on testimony from those who had the misfortune of living in Cincinnati, I learned ENOUGH about Dolan and Cekada to conclude they're no saints, they're no martyrs. It sounds like they live QUITE the comfortable life now. Cui bono?

    Good riddance to bad rubbish! The SSPX was better off without them. It hurt at the time, but so does having a boil lanced, or having your inflamed appendix -- or impacted bowel movement -- removed.

    Having read that letter, it made me question my support of the Resistance. It almost made me want to go back to the SSPX and beg forgiveness.

    Fortunately, a quick perusal of the CCCC thread reminded me that it's different this time. I know that's a cliche, but it really is different this time! The SSPX is not just maintaining a "recognize and resist" position -- no, they're morphing into the FSSP which most SSPX faithful, seminarians, and priests did NOT sign up for. But also, the Resistance is not  sedevacantist just like Abp. Lefebvre wasn't sedevacantist. Just like the original group (SSPX) was not sedevacantist. The Nine were sedevacantist. EVERY LAST ONE of their "complaints" flow from their belief that the post-V2 popes are not popes.

    And these traitors proceeded to sue the SSPX and got many of its properties. I have no sympathy for them. They're not humble martyrs for the truth. They're opportunistic, treacherous snakes in the grass, Brutus stabbers-in-the-back. They weren't after the truth. They were after SSPX real estate, and couldn't subordinate their proud wills to the leadership of Archbishop Lefebvre. They wanted to follow their own will only.
    Sorry, but you are wrong, all nine did NOT hold the sedevacantist position at the time. Father Collins was absolutely not a “sedevacantist” at the time. Father’s memmory is excellent and I have discussed this with him many times. As a matter of fact, many years ago I got in an argument with a “non-sede” about this subject. I argued that all nine were in fact “sedevacantists” and that was the reason they left the SSPX! After asking Father Collins about it, he corrected me and in turn I apologized to the fellow with whom I had the argument.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #32 on: April 12, 2019, 07:39:03 AM »
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    • The letter of the 9 and their "complaints" are basically like this, "there is no Church. No one has authority. Archbishop Lefebvre doesn't have authority over us, the subjects of his Priestly Order. We're going to do anything we like. Nobody's going to tell us what to do. We'll take your property if we want to. Everybody is going to listen to us. We are the final authority here."

    Archbishop Lefebvre had said, "We had some Priests with us and they tried to lead us into Schism. They say, there is no Pope, no Cardinals, no Bishops, no Catholic Church. I don't say that. I don't accept that. That is Schism". So, it is wrong thinking to say there is no Hierarchy.

    Restoration will come to Rome, that's the supernatural hope Archbishop Lefebvre always had and never lost sight of, trusting in the divine Promise. Read His Grace's words and that 1983 sermon, it is very clear, we are going to remain strictly Traditional, strictly Roman and strictly Catholic. God will raise up the Prelates and Shepherds who are necessary and our Traditional Catholic Bishops will work with them for Catholic Restoration. That's the firm faith and supernatural hope that we must always have, taught by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    All of us, by prayer and sacrifice, by supporting and praying for our Traditional Bishops and Priests, as well as all Priests, Monks and Nuns generally, can play our part in the coming Restoration, and share in each other's prayers also. That is what we are all called to do.

    God has always raised up Saints when the situation seemed most dire and it appeared as if human hope was lost. He will do so again.

    Let us each strive to do our best to fulfill our duties of state to the utmost and attain that degree of sanctity we are called to. God will do all the rest.

    Svism is not the solution to the crisis because it distracts and divides and even delays Church Restoration. It's time to move on from that.
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    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #33 on: April 14, 2019, 06:29:23 AM »
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    • The fact of the matter is that "The Nine" saw many of the issues with the SSPX well before "The Resistance".  It wasn't popular with the SSPX leadership then.  It isn't popular with the SSPX leadership now.

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #34 on: April 14, 2019, 06:31:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on April 10, 2019, 06:44:39 PM
    Criminals? Father Collins was NOT a sedevacantist.....I know it’s difficult for you to get, but let that sink in.
    God Bless Father Collins and the rest of "The Nine" even if some say they amounted to nothing.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #35 on: April 14, 2019, 06:15:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 14, 2019, 06:29:23 AM
    The fact of the matter is that "The Nine" saw many of the issues with the SSPX well before "The Resistance".  It wasn't popular with the SSPX leadership then.  It isn't popular with the SSPX leadership now.
    This is very true. Even though tradition owns a debt of gratitude to the SSPX, it shouldn’t be treated as a sacrosanct institution.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #36 on: April 14, 2019, 06:24:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 14, 2019, 06:31:51 AM
    God Bless Father Collins and the rest of "The Nine" even if some say they amounted to nothing.
    Yes. As you well know, when the SSPX becomes an official part of the NO church, “The Nine”, the priests who were ordained by them, and the CMRI will be the largest traditional Catholic block, although not united under the same organization, but all holding the sedevacantist position.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #37 on: April 14, 2019, 07:10:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on April 14, 2019, 06:24:21 PM
    Yes. As you well know, when the SSPX becomes an official part of the NO church, “The Nine”, the priests who were ordained by them, and the CMRI will be the largest traditional Catholic block, although not united under the same organization, but all holding the sedevacantist position.
    An SSPX defection isn't something that should be gleefully looked forward to. If they were to concede entirely to Rome without Rome returning to the faith, it'd be a great blow for Traditional Catholicism.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #38 on: April 14, 2019, 07:26:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 14, 2019, 07:10:26 PM
    An SSPX defection isn't something that should be gleefully looked forward to. If they were to concede entirely to Rome without Rome returning to the faith, it'd be a great blow for Traditional Catholicism.
    I don't think anyone is gleefully looking forward to it, but it shouldn't be a surprise when such a defection occurs ...when one continues to look to a manifest heretic who professes a religion other than the Catholic Faith as the legitimate visible head of the Catholic Church.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #39 on: April 14, 2019, 07:39:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 14, 2019, 07:10:26 PM
    An SSPX defection isn't something that should be gleefully looked forward to. If they were to concede entirely to Rome without Rome returning to the faith, it'd be a great blow for Traditional Catholicism.
    I didn’t think I was being “gleeful”. Actually I think it’s a horrible travesty and will lead to the endangerment of many souls. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #40 on: April 14, 2019, 07:40:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on April 14, 2019, 07:39:14 PM
    I didn’t think I was being “gleeful”. Actually I think it’s a horrible travesty and will lead to the endangerment of many souls.
    Apologies then. It just sounded to me like you were seeing it as an upcoming vindication of sedevacantism.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #41 on: April 14, 2019, 08:02:45 PM »
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    • I just wanted to chime in. Yes, Xavier, I think sedes are certainly Catholic. (To pique at the sedes I also think Feeneyites are certainly Catholic). For the most part I mean as I do not know them all. My good friend from Church is named Tom and he is a sede and he always argues after our SSPX Mass about how the SSPX is weak and does not condemn Bergoglio enough. I am pretty sure I love Tom more than every other person in the chapel. Everyone else either hates him or merely tolerates him and makes fun of him when he is not around. His nickname is "Mount Aetna" because he explodes like a volcano when he argues about the Church. "The homo hierarchy". I think he is a good man. Pray for him as he has cancer. But to say my own position, I am an SSPX Catholic who is sympathetic to the resistance and loves Bishop Williamson, but the resistance chapel is far away.

    I do not think you speak fairly about "the Nine" and their letter, Xavier. Though I do not know the details about the lawsuit and how they took those properties from the SSPX, their letter made some good points as I remember it. I have not read it in years, but I believe they questioned Novus Ordo annulments (a point which I agree with) and the Bugnini Holy Week (which I sympathize with), and the acceptance of Novus Ordo ordained priests (which I agree with). So I don't think the complaints were beyond the pale. I see sedes as allies and not schismatics, though I know a lot of people see everyone who does not agree with them on every point to be enemies. I would rather receive Communion from a CMRI priest or an SSPV priest than a Novus Ordo priest (even an indult priest) and I have never been to a sedevacantist chapel.
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    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: To non-sedes: Do you believe schismatic SVs, who die as SVs, can be saved?
    « Reply #42 on: April 14, 2019, 08:16:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 14, 2019, 07:40:41 PM
    Apologies then. It just sounded to me like you were seeing it as an upcoming vindication of sedevacantism.
    No problem, I just wanted to make clear my position.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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