Stubborn,
I thought my post made it clear that the answer to your second question is "No," as faith alone does not justify. Moreover, I do believe what the canon teaches, just not your interpretation of its meaning. Instead, I shall continue to rely upon the collective understanding of the highest-trained, papal-approved, pre-Vatican II theologians.
No, it was not clear to me, thanks for clarifying that you believe the Church teaching that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation and that without them, man cannot be justified.
You should look up why the 1917 CIC allowed deceased catechumens to receive Catholic burials. A man can be justified and "saved" before receiving either the sacraments of Baptism or Penance, but he must also have the firm intention of receiving these sacraments as early as possible in order for his perfect charity and contrition to be efficacious.
Is your argument that a catechumens cannot have perfect charity, or is it that perfect charity does not remit sin? Both assertions, may I remind you, are erroneous.
The argument is that BODers accuse Trent of teaching a BOD and that it is a de fide teaching which rewards salvation without the sacrament and via some implicit desire - which is condemned explicitly in canon IV which I posted specifically to point the fact out that justification through faith alone and salvation without the sacraments is condemned in canon IV.
All the speculative theology surrounding a BOD includes salvation via some sort of desire - yet there is no magisterial teaching to support that theory. There is however, as canon IV states, a de fide teaching that without the sacraments there is no salvation and that without the sacraments, man cannot even be justified.
If the ever so extremely rare faithful and contrite catechumen who cannot be sure of his fate if he dies before receiving the sacrament but might possibly, maybe, perhaps, conceivably, perchance obtain *justification* before he actually receives the sacrament, how is it that without the sacrament, everyone is so positive that whoever has some sort of implicit desire to be baptized even if they never heard of the sacrament or the Church for that matter can obtain *salvation* without them?
Trent teaches justification can sometimes occur *before* the actual reception of the sacrament, *not without it* - which in and of itself should kill the whole idea of salvation via a BOD before it ever gets off the ground - but no.
Instead, the sacrament despisers take what Trent clearly teaches and twists it to the point that any one and everyone, literally, can be rewarded salvation because they desired baptism, that non-members who die are actually inside the Church via their desire and that most are saved and few are condemned.
Again, Trent teaches justification can sometimes occur *before* the actual reception of the sacrament, *not without it* - as such, all speculation SHOULD focus on what happens if the person dies before the reception of the sacrament because per Trent, all we really know for positive is that without the sacrament, man cannot obtain salvation.
KNOWN #1 Trent clearly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation - you said that you agree and so far even SJB said he agrees with that.
KNOWN #2 Trent also clearly teaches that rare tho it may be, in extremely rare cases, justification can be obtained before the actual reception of the sacrament.
Now put those two "knowns" together and regardless of what *we want* to believe, we KNOW it is infallible that there can be no salvation without the sacraments because Trent explicitly and infallibly said so no matter how badly one desires to receive it and no matter if the rare catechumen obtains justification before he actually receives the sacrament.
This is why Fr. Feeney stated (below) that he did not know where the justified catechumen goes who dies before the reception of the sacrament - because there is no magisterial teaching that tells us - Trent "left us all hanging" as it were - all we know for positive is that Trent taught that there is no salvation without the sacraments - theologians and fathers who teach otherwise are not echoing Church teaching, they are teaching their own opinion.
Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.
Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.
Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.
Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.
Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!
Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.
Topic: Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement (Read 7662 times)