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Author Topic: The Why of Baptism of Desire  (Read 1629 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2017, 05:22:49 PM »
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  • Yeah, yeah, so you say.  But what's YOUR motivation for turning this into your personal crusade ... to the point of dedicating an entire website to it?  Did you have a close relative pass away outside the Church?  That's usually it for the zealous anti-EENSers.

    Just bumping this since Augustinus tried to derail this point with a completely irrelevant comment.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 05:35:06 PM »
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  • Again, as an act of faith. Faith doesn't rest on your opinion or your intellect but the authority of God revealing.
    Now, one of the things the Church teaches which we accept in faith is that the unanimous consent of theologians that a truth is revealed by God binds in the forum of conscience.
    Now consensus is not numerical positive teaching, but moral unanimity. In other words, that all who teach on a topic do not substantially contradict one another.
    So say out of 100 theologians 30 positively teach BoD and the others are silent, the theologians unanimously teach BoD.
    Now, can you demonstrate a single theologian besides the erroneous Peter Lombard, whose teachings were condemnedin many other areas, that positively denies that the sanctifying grace of water baptism cannot be infused apart from the material element of the sacrament?

    If not, then in faith you should submit your imagination and intellect to that which binds in the forum of conscience.

    Or risk being faithless.

    Garbage.  For 800 years a false Augustinian position was held unanimously by theologians, something which was eventually questioned by one Abelard, the same one who rejected BoD (not Peter Lombard).  Church endorsed Abelard's position and overturned the Augustinian position that had been held for 800 years.  Peter Lombard ended up going with the Hugh of St. Victor position in favor of BoD.  And it's from him that the scholastics picked it up.  Just because something has become a widely accepted position in speculative theology doesn't make it Catholic doctrine.

    "Faithless" my foot.  And to think I had given you more credit than that.


    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #17 on: March 31, 2017, 05:51:09 PM »
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  • Garbage.  For 800 years a false Augustinian position was held unanimously by theologians, something which was eventually questioned by one Abelard, the same one who rejected BoD (not Peter Lombard).  Church endorsed Abelard's position and overturned the Augustinian position that had been held for 800 years.  Peter Lombard ended up going with the Hugh of St. Victor position in favor of BoD.  And it's from him that the scholastics picked it up.  Just because something has become a widely accepted position in speculative theology doesn't make it Catholic doctrine.

    "Faithless" my foot.  And to think I had given you more credit than that.
    No, the Augustinian position is not a matter of substantial teaching but a mere detail, the nature of the precise pain that infants in hell suffer. And that detail was actually never repealed because Pope Benedict XIV recognized the right of Italian Augustinians to teach the opinion.
    I am not condemning you or calling you a heretic Laudislaus. I came across that quote indirectly without agenda. These issues certainly are complex and there is a lot of history behind them. 
    Why don't you consult the pre-Vatican II theological manuals to inform you as to the weight of theological unanimity?
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #18 on: March 31, 2017, 06:01:25 PM »
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  • More on the weight of the unanimous consent theologians- 1906

    http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/wilhelm_scannell_04.html

    II. The authority of Theologians, like that of the Fathers, may be considered either individually and partially, or of the whole body collectively. As a rule, the authority of a single Theologian (with the exception of canonized Saints, and perhaps some authors of the greatest weight) does not create the presumption that no point of his doctrine was opposed to the common teaching of the Church in his day; much less that, independently of his reasons, the whole of his doctrine is positively probable merely on account of his authority. When, however, the majority of approved and weighty Theologians agree, it must be presumed that their teaching is not opposed to that of the Church. Moreover, if their doctrines are based upon sound arguments propounded without any prejudice and not contradicted very decidedly, the positive probability of the doctrines must be presumed. No more than this probability can be produced by the consent of many or even of all Theologians when they state a doctrine as a common opinion (opinio communis) and not as a common conviction (sententia conmunis). These questions have been discussed at great length by Moral Theologians in the controversy on Probabilism. See Lacroix, Theol. Mor., lib. I., tr. i., c. 2.

    The consent of Theologians produces certainty that a doctrine is Catholic truth only when on the one hand the doctrine is proposed as absolutely certain, and on the other and the consent is universal and constant (Consensus universalis et constans non solurn opinionis sed firmae et ratae sententiae). If all agree that a particular doctrine is a Catholic dogma and that to deny it is heresy, then that doctrine is certainly a dogma. If they agree that a doctrine cannot be denied without injuring Catholic truth, and that such denial is deserving of censure, this again is a sure proof that the doctrine is in some way a Catholic doctrine. If, again, they agree in declaring that a doctrine is sufficiently certain and demonstrated, their consent is not indeed a formal proof of the Catholic character of the doctrine, nevertheless the existence of the consent shows that the doctrine belongs to the mind of the Church (catholicus intellectus)and that consequently its denial would incur the censure of rashness.

    These principles on the authority of Theologians were strongly insisted on by Pius IX in the brief, Gravissimas inter (cf. infra, § 29), and they are evident consequences of the Catholic doctrine of Tradition. Although the assistance of the Holy Ghost is not directly promised to Theologians, nevertheless the assistance promised to the Church requires that He should prevent them as a body from falling into error; otherwise the Faithful who follow them would all be led astray. The consent of Theologians implies the consent of the Episcopate, according to St. Augustine's dictum: “Not to resist an error is to approve of it — not to defend a truth is to reject it.” (“Error cui non resistitur approbatur, et veritas quae non defenditur opprimitur “ (Decr. Grat., dist. 83, c. error). And even natural reason assures us that this consent is a guarantee of truth. “Whatever is found to be one and the same among many persons is not an error but a tradition” (Tertullian). (Supra, p. 68.) 
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #19 on: March 31, 2017, 07:45:15 PM »
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  • Let me ask another question since this last one came up pretty short of any real answer. Should Catholics have confidence in bod?     


    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #20 on: March 31, 2017, 09:00:46 PM »
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  • Let me ask another question since this last one came up pretty short of any real answer. Should Catholics have confidence in bod?    
    Catholics don't need it.
    Now should catechumens have confidence in BoD? 
    Not presumptuously, but they should have a firm hope in Gods salvific will so long as they are not aware of creating any obstacle on their part and acknowledge their objective need for it.
    You might as well ask: "Can one have confidence in God?"
    Yes, provided one is not presumptuous.
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 10:14:36 PM »
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  • Let me ask another question since this last one came up pretty short of any real answer. Should Catholics have confidence in bod?    
     
    Bod is obviously not a common occurrence. The Church simply teaches we must believe it is possible.
     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 10:22:30 PM »
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  • More on the weight of the unanimous consent theologians- 1906

    http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/wilhelm_scannell_04.html
     
    You have found some good quotes confirming the Church's teaching on the unanimous consent of theologians, and they clearly disprove Ladi. As you are discovering, he refuses not only the most clearly written proof such as you provided, but ALL proof, if it threatens his position in the least. He would also fight you to the death arguing the sky is not blue. That's just what he does and you have to take it with a grain of salt.

     


    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #23 on: March 31, 2017, 10:29:14 PM »
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  • You have found some good quotes confirming the Church's teaching on the unanimous consent of theologians, and they clearly disprove Ladi. As you are discovering, he refuses not only the most clearly written proof such as you provided, but ALL proof, if it threatens his position in the least. He would also fight you to the death arguing the sky is not blue. That's just what he does and you have to take it with a grain of salt.

     
    Obviously we are all trying to be faithful to Jesus Christ, I think we need to remember that and not impugn bad will to others too quickly. But constant ad hominem attacks certainly do no good and destroy charity.
    Seriously, the issues I discuss have no bearing on persons or their integrity, I just want to have clear discussions with others that aid in me personally clarifying the faith to myself and can only hope that the process is being mirrored in the other person to their benefit.
    One thing I don't respect in others is the unwillingness to see what is placed before your eyes, and this is all around, not directed to any individual:
    "Hey this is interesting, look what was taught before Vatican II!"
    "That wasn't taught."
    "Uh, its in 5 theology manuals by Pohle, Tanqueray, Spinoza, Etc. Sure it was."
    "No, that's an invention."
    "...ok... that's not what every priest and bishop in the world said in 1930."
    "Doesn't matter."
    "Right..."
    How can I take that seriously?
    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #24 on: March 31, 2017, 10:43:50 PM »
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  • Obviously we are all trying to be faithful to Jesus Christ, I think we need to remember that and not impugn bad will to others too quickly. But constant ad hominem attacks certainly do no good and destroy charity.
    Seriously, the issues I discuss have no bearing on persons or their integrity, I just want to have clear discussions with others that aid in me personally clarifying the faith to myself and can only hope that the process is being mirrored in the other person to their benefit.
    One thing I don't respect in others is the unwillingness to see what is placed before your eyes, and this is all around, not directed to any individual:
    "Hey this is interesting, look what was taught before Vatican II!"
    "That wasn't taught."
    "Uh, its in 5 theology manuals by Pohle, Tanqueray, Spinoza, Etc. Sure it was."
    "No, that's an invention."
    "...ok... that's not what every priest and bishop in the world said in 1930."
    "Doesn't matter."
    "Right..."
    How can I take that seriously?
     
    That EXACT type of conversation happens in this sub-forum on a DAILY basis. It becomes truly disturbing after a while. I've been accused of bad will countless times and called every name in the book. I compare it to an insane asylum in here.
     

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Why of Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #25 on: April 01, 2017, 06:15:00 AM »
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  • Check out what Fr. Francis Connell said. Sounds a lot like what Bumphrey has been saying.
    Fr. Francis Connell of the Redemptorists wrote in 1963: http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1448

    "Now, it is true, theologians as such do not belong to the Ecclesia docens and accordingly have no right to speak authoritatively in the name of the Church. Nevertheless, the fact that the Church allows theologians unanimously (or with practical unanimity) to teach a certain doctrine for a considerable period of time is equivalent to a positive approbation of that doctrine. As J. Salaverri, S.J., expresses it: "The consent of theologians in matters of faith and morals is so intimately connected with the teaching Church that an error in the consent of theologians would induce an error in the universal Church."7 Indeed, the authority of theologians properly understood is one of the loci theologici.

    In other words, if the Church permitted theologians unanimously (or with practical unanimity) to teach for a long time as Catholic truth a doctrine that is false, the infallible teaching authority of the Church in its ordinary and universal magisterium would be endangered. Now, for centuries Catholic theologians with moral unanimity taught that there are certain revealed doctrines that are contained only in unwritten tradition, not in Sacred Scripture. Hence, the new opinion, teaching the contrary, is at least difficult to reconcile with the infallibility of the Church."

    So the Theologians unanimity is authoritative precisely because the Church cannot be passive in the face of error over so many centuries.

    Interestingly enough isn't this what Bosco and Bumphrey were saying?

    Hmmm...
    Yes, nado and bosco say this, and Fr. Feeney did not have a high opinion of Fr. Connell's theology, remember that Fr. Connell was one of those "well respected" 20th century theologians that helped usher in this crisis.

    Note the double talking half truth: "Nevertheless, the fact that the Church allows theologians unanimously (or with practical unanimity) to teach a certain doctrine for a considerable period of time is equivalent to a positive approbation of that doctrine." This idea is what has permeated the bosco's and nado's of the world into misquoting catechisms and speculative teachings of theologians and saints etc. as if they are infallible, while completely ignoring binding, infallible teachings, effectively making them a waste of time.   


    Compare what Fr. Connell says above, with what Pope Pius IX taught below:

    Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse