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Author Topic: The three errors of the Feeneyites  (Read 4675 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
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  • First Statement:  True.  I do not believe that the Church teaches BoD.

    Second Statement:  False.  In no way do I limit Magisterium to solemn teaching.  I just examine the context and the theological notes of this position on Baptism of Desire and I see it as not rising above that of a speculative opinion.  Sedevacantists in particular have a problem with putting everything within the Magisterium on the same level as solemn Magisterium.  SVs effectively turn every offhand comment in a lightweight papal allocution to being tantatmount to and on the same level as a solemn dogmatic definition.  There are degrees of truth and certainty even within the Magisterium.  And that is YOUR major error in pretending that BoD is dogma or even theologically certain.
    Could not have been said better.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #31 on: August 30, 2017, 11:20:03 AM »
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  • The English translation of Chapter 7 as found in The Church Teaches (TCT 563) accurately reflects the Latin (The Church Teaches, TAN Books & Publishers). In this edition, this important sentence is correctly translated: …The instrumental cause [of justification - Ed.is the sacrament of baptism, which is the ‘sacrament of faith’; without faith no one has ever been justified."  The correct translation of the original Latin expresses the Church’s traditional teaching and refutes the Feeneyite error.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #32 on: August 30, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »
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  • First Statement:  True.  I do not believe that the Church teaches BoD.

    Second Statement:  False.  In no way do I limit Magisterium to solemn teaching.  I just examine the context and the theological notes of this position on Baptism of Desire and I see it as not rising above that of a speculative opinion.  Sedevacantists in particular have a problem with putting everything within the Magisterium on the same level as solemn Magisterium.  SVs effectively turn every offhand comment in a lightweight papal allocution to being tantatmount to and on the same level as a solemn dogmatic definition.  There are degrees of truth and certainty even within the Magisterium.  And that is YOUR major error in pretending that BoD is dogma or even theologically certain.
    But Ladislaus, the context of solemn teaching is ordinary teaching.  The context of Trent is St. Thomas' Summa, which teaches BoD, being placed on the altars next to the scriptures.  The context of Trent is Trent's catechism, which teaches BoD, published by those who attended the council and approved its canons.  The context of Trent is St. Alphonsus, a Doctor of the Church, saying that it teaches BoD.  The context of Trent is the contemporaneous Bellarmine, arguably the greatest contra-protestant apologist ever, and the Church's principal ecclesiologist, teaching BoD.  The Context of Trent is the ongoing teaching of BoD from or with the approbation of popes (Innocent III, Pius IX, Pius X's catechism, the Baltimore Catechism approved by Leo XIII), along with every consultable theologian who treats the issue since Trent.  So on and so forth. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #33 on: August 30, 2017, 12:15:30 PM »
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  • Why is anyone carrying on a conversation on baptism of blood and baptism of desire of the catechumen with this man who does not believe either one is necessary for salvation? He teaches that people can be saved without any desire whatsoever to be anything remotely resembling a Catholic, just like all the Vatican II church clergy, all the Novus Ordo's.

    I know that today anything goes as far as salvation, but the Church also has not yet condemned the teaching of the Fathers and the whole Church, that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. Not one Father, Doctor, Saint who taught and believed that has been condemned. It is only people like the poster who refuse to accept this teaching that perfectly meshes with all the clear dogmas on EENS.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 12:18:30 PM »
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  • Why is anyone carrying a conversation on baptism of blood and baptism of desire of the catechumen with this man who does not believe either one is necessary for salvation? He teaches that people can be saved without any desire whatsoever to be anything remotely resembling a Catholic, just like the Vatican II church clergy, all the Novus Ordo's.  
    Share a quote from me that states this?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 12:19:32 PM »
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  • When the Council of Trent is read carefully, we see that the Council teaches that:
    Quote
    Quote
    ...it is necessary to believe that the justified have everything necessary for them to be regarded as having completely satisfied the divine law for this life by their works, at least those which they have performed in God. And they may be regarded as having likewise truly merited the eternal life they will certainly attain in due time (if they but die in the state of grace) (see Apoc. 14:13; 606, can. 32), because Christ our Savior says: "He who drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst, but it will become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting" (see Jn. 4:13 ff.)[8] [Session VI, Chap. 16; Dz 809].
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 12:37:10 PM »
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  • I know that today anything goes as far as salvation, but the Church also has not yet condemned the teaching of the Fathers and the whole Church, that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. Not one Father, Doctor, Saint who taught and believed that has been condemned. It is that teaching that the poster rejects and who refuses to accept.

    I totally reject the teaching that Pagans, Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus... etc. (indeed all  the peoples in all false religions) can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. The poster rejects the teaching that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. I have all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what I believe, he has who? Show me one theologian that rejected what I believe.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #37 on: August 30, 2017, 12:40:39 PM »
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  • I know that today anything goes as far as salvation, but the Church also has not yet condemned the teaching of the Fathers and the whole Church, that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. Not one Father, Doctor, Saint who taught and believed that has been condemned. It is that teaching that the poster rejects and who refuses to accept.
    :confused:  What on earth are you trying to say?
    When do you expect the Church to condemn the teaching of the Fathers?   :laugh1:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 12:44:45 PM »
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  • I totally reject the teaching that Pagans, Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus... etc. (indeed all  the peoples in all false religions) can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. The poster rejects the teaching that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. I have all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what I believe, he has who? Show me one theologian that rejected what I believe.

    The poster condemns the teachings of the Fathers when he condemns what he calls Feeneyites.

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:
    “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20:
    “Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”



    St. John Chrysostom, Homily XXV: “Hear, ye as many as are unilluminated, shudder, groan, fearful is the threat, fearful is the sentence. ‘It is not possible,’ He [Christ] saith, ‘for one not born of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of heaven’; because he wears the raiment of death, of cursing, of perdition, he hath not yet received his Lord’s token, he is a stranger and an alien, he hath not the royal watchword. ‘Except,’ He saith, ‘a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #39 on: August 30, 2017, 12:46:47 PM »
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  • The poster condemns the teachings of the Fathers when he condemns what he calls Feeneyites.

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism.”
     
     
    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:
    “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”
     
     
    St. John Chrysostom, Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20:
    “Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”
     
     

    St. John Chrysostom, Homily XXV: “Hear, ye as many as are unilluminated, shudder, groan, fearful is the threat, fearful is the sentence. ‘It is not possible,’ He [Christ] saith, ‘for one not born of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of heaven’; because he wears the raiment of death, of cursing, of perdition, he hath not yet received his Lord’s token, he is a stranger and an alien, he hath not the royal watchword. ‘Except,’ He saith, ‘a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”
    Share a quote from me that condemns the teachings of the Fathers.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #40 on: August 30, 2017, 12:52:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    Quote from the poster: The world would be a much better place if there were no schismatics, sodomites, feeneyites, pedophiles, heretics or apostates.
     

    When the poster places "feeneyites" with sodomites and others he is condeming all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what we Catholics believe, that one must be a baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1552xavier4.html
    From: Henry James Coleridge, ed., The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier, 2d Ed., 2 Vols., (London: Burns & Oates, 1890), Vol. II, pp. 331-350; reprinted in William H. McNeil and Mitsuko Iriye, eds., Modern Asia and Africa, Readings in World History Vol. 9, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), pp. 20-30.

    St. Francis Xavier:
    Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

    One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #41 on: August 30, 2017, 12:55:34 PM »
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  • I totally reject the teaching that Pagans, Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus... etc. (indeed all  the peoples in all false religions) can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. 

    The poster rejects the teaching that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. I have all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what I believe, he has who? Show me one theologian that rejected what I believe.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #42 on: August 30, 2017, 12:56:01 PM »
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  •  

    When the poster places "feeneyites" with sodomites and others he is condeming all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what we Catholics believe, that one must be a baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1552xavier4.html
    From: Henry James Coleridge, ed., The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier, 2d Ed., 2 Vols., (London: Burns & Oates, 1890), Vol. II, pp. 331-350; reprinted in William H. McNeil and Mitsuko Iriye, eds., Modern Asia and Africa, Readings in World History Vol. 9, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), pp. 20-30.
    St. Francis Xavier:
    Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

    One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.
    Heresy is a graver sin than perversion.  Still waiting for a quote that condemns what the Fathers teach on the issue of EENS and BOD.  I think I'll be waiting a long time.  
    Seems like you are the typical feeneyite when his heresy is shown for what it is tries to discredit the individual who shares the truth from the Fathers.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 12:57:54 PM »
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  • I totally reject the teaching that Pagans, Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus... etc. (indeed all  the peoples in all false religions) can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards.

    The poster rejects the teaching that one can only be saved if he is a a water baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death. I have all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints who taught what I believe, he has who? Show me one theologian that rejected what I believe.
    :confused: What on earth are you saying.  I know you are trying to make this a personal issue but how?  Still don't get the point you wish people to believe about me.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 01:00:05 PM »
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  • People with eyes to see will perfectly understand what I am asking. Observe how the poster avoids the issue. It is very clear what I am saying. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24