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Author Topic: The three errors of the Feeneyites  (Read 4677 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 09:11:05 AM »
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  • None of the arguments of the Feeneyites have value against the rock of Tradition. But, to be consistent, let us refute two more of their major errors.

    Error II:

    The doctrine of baptism of desire is optional The Feeneyites present the Church’s doctrine of baptism of desire as a question to be freely discussed within the Church: "...what amounts to an academic difference to be settled by the Church."[6] If this were the case, each school of thought would then have to be accepted until the pope later defined this doctrine. This is false. The error here is to claim that only that which has already been defined belongs to the deposit of Faith, and everything else is opened to free discussion. The truth is that one must believe everything which belongs to the deposit of Faith, that being what has already been defined and that which is not yet defined but is unanimously taught by the Church.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 09:13:11 AM »
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  • LoT continues to tenaciously and obstinately promote the following heresies:

    1) Pelagianism

    2) the notion that justification is possible without the Sacrament of Baptism

    Hey, LoT, why is it so difficult for you to affirm the following dogmatic proposition?

    "In the new dispensation, it is impossible for anyone to be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism?"

    Why can't you affirm this Catholic dogma?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 09:14:52 AM »
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  • None of the arguments of the Feeneyites have value against the rock of Tradition. But, to be consistent, let us refute two more of their major errors.

    Error II:

    The doctrine of baptism of desire is optional The Feeneyites present the Church’s doctrine of baptism of desire as a question to be freely discussed within the Church: "...what amounts to an academic difference to be settled by the Church."[6] If this were the case, each school of thought would then have to be accepted until the pope later defined this doctrine. This is false. The error here is to claim that only that which has already been defined belongs to the deposit of Faith, and everything else is opened to free discussion. The truth is that one must believe everything which belongs to the deposit of Faith, that being what has already been defined and that which is not yet defined but is unanimously taught by the Church.

    So LoT, the insane spammer, not content to post the entire article, will repost it paragraph by paragraph every time a Feeneyite responds to anything of substance.

    He's not only a pertinacious heretic, but he's also obnoxious, arrogant, and deranged.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 09:17:05 AM »
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  • Therefore one ought to believe in the doctrine of "three baptisms," as it belongs to the Catholic Faith, though not yet defined. That is why St. Alphonsus can say, as we have already reported: "It is de fide...."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 09:17:37 AM »
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  • The man is a merry-go-round riding around from baptism of Blood, to baptism of desire of the catechumen.......all the way to the end: to salvation of all who believe in a God the rewards, and back again to baptism of blood.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 09:18:17 AM »
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  • Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jєωs can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)


    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: 
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…” 

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…” 

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

    Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
    Decree on Justification, 
    Chapter IV. 

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. 

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

    Chapter VII. 

    What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof. 

    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. 

    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. 
    On Baptism

    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
    way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
    Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
    have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ

    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
    have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)


    (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #21 on: August 30, 2017, 09:19:39 AM »
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  • We can concede that if a point of doctrine is not yet defined, one may be excused in case of ignorance or may be allowed to discuss some precision within the doctrine. In the case of baptism of desire, for instance, we are allowed to discuss how explicit the Catholic Faith must be in one for baptism of desire. But one is not allowed to simply deny baptism of desire and reject the doctrine itself. Rigorism always tends to destroy the truth.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #22 on: August 30, 2017, 09:27:07 AM »
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  • He who denies a point of doctrine of the Church, knowing that it is unanimously taught in the Tradition of the Church, even though it is not yet defined, is not without sin against the virtue of Faith "without which [Faith] no one ever was justified" (Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, 799; hereafter abbreviated Dz).
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #23 on: August 30, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »
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  • Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.

    And to each one or your points, the arrogant heretical man-child takes another 3-sentence snippet from the article in the OP and spams it in to hide your remarks.  He's rationing himself now, only grabbing 2-3 sentence, fearing that he'll run out of spam material.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 09:27:54 AM »
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  • He who denies a point of doctrine of the Church, knowing that it is unanimously taught in the Tradition of the Church, even though it is not yet defined, is not without sin against the virtue of Faith "without which [Faith] no one ever was justified" (Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, 799; hereafter abbreviated Dz).

    Now he's spamming in one sentence at a time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 09:29:33 AM »
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  • Lover of Heresy, you've gone full retard again.



    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 09:32:18 AM »
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  • Error III:

    The Council of Trent teaches that baptism of desire is sufficient for justification "but not for salvation"
    Let us preface this section by saying the Council of Trent clearly teaches that baptism of desire is sufficient for justification. The Council anathematizes anyone believing the contrary. It is very explicitly stated in Session VII, Canon 4 on the sacraments in general:

    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous; and that men can, without the sacraments or the desire of them, obtain the grace of justification by faith alone, although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each individual; let him be anathema (The Church Teaches, 668; Dz 847).

    We must be wary of ambiguous translations from the original Latin. (The accuracy of Latin is supreme and must be respected.) In a recent flyer published by the Feeneyites entitled, "Desire, Justification and Salvation at the Council of Trent," an ambiguous translation of Session VI, Chapter 7 (Dz 799) is used: "...the instrumental cause [of justification - Ed.is the sacrament of baptism, which is the ‘sacrament of faith,’ without which no one is ever justified....". Now the Latin has: "sine qua nulli unquam contigit iustificatio." In the Latin original, therefore, the phrase "without which" (or, in the Latin original, "sine qua", is a feminine pronoun meant to agree with a feminine noun) refers to the "faith" (a feminine noun in Latin) and not to "sacrament" (a neuter noun in Latin meant to agree with a neuter pronoun). If it was"sacrament" the Council Fathers wanted to highlight "without which no one is ever justified," they would have written "sine quo."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #27 on: August 30, 2017, 10:12:36 AM »
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  • The principal error that gives way to denial of BoD is a corruption of a Catholic's approach to learning.  Fr. Laisney doesn't mention this because the SSPX doesn't really have a good handle on the topic anyways, and in fact, their approach to Catholic learning (I would say) is highly influential in cultivating BoD denial.  In theory they seem to say the right thing, but in practice they woefully transgress.

    The singular most fundamental reason that anyone denies BoD is that they do not believe the Church teaches it.  They do not believe that the Church teaches it because they believe that the Church only teaches the faithful at the solemn level.  So, they look to the solemn level and they don't find BoD (which is surprising, since Trent teaches the desire of baptism).  Case closed.  The Ordinary Magisterium is just whatever is repeated from a solemn level, it's only "inadvertently" infallible, the way that each individual is infallible when they do math correctly, or tell what time it is.  It's infallible when it's right, fallible when it's wrong.  So, they will probably say they do learn from the ordinary magisterium, because they believe whatever the ordinary magisterium teaches when it echoes the solemn.  The error is in believing that it could ever not echo what is taught at a solemn level.  Trust is not extended to the ordinary magisterium, but suspicion is.  The ordinary magisterium is really where Satan enters the Church, it is where he fools simple Catholics by taking control of the mechanism by which they traditionally learn the faith.

    I already posted about this in length elsewhere.  

    The proximate rule of faith for Catholics is the ordinary magisterium.  That's another way of saying that Catholics usually, normally, and by design (i.e., according to the structure and order that God has chosen for His Church) learn the faith from the ordinary magisterium.  This is also common sense.  No one learns law by reading case law and the constitution to the exclusion of legal commentators and professors.  No one learns medicine by reading the PDR or DSM-V to the exclusion of biological and psychological theorists.  So on and so forth.  The material that is published at the solemn level is for people who are engaged at the solemn level: in the Church, those are the bishops.  Councils are for them, not for us, except by eventual diffusal.  Treating these (solemn) methods of teaching as the proximate rule of doctrine would be like a factory worker who is suing for unemployment going to an ABA conference to learn how to make his case.  He won't even be able to make sense of what's going, and he'll leave with a head full of bunk and he'll get laughed out of a courtroom.  Likewise, the impatience on the part of those who believe in BoD toward those who deny it is understandable in that light.  We get short with you not so much because you're wrong, but because your approach to learning the faith is quite truly absurd.  

    Though at the same time, I think that an understanding and merciful attitude is (generally) warranted, because these are strange times.  I've written about this elsewhere, too-- mainly, that it may appear as though Vatican II proves that what happens at an ordinary level of teaching can be quite insidious, but we're Catholics and we love the faith, so we need to get it from somewhere-- where better to get it than straight from the horse's mouth?  That way we know that no rogue bishop or heretic will stand in the way of us apprehending, unadulterated, the teachings of Truth made Manifest.  It's an appealing proposition, though what it contains in zeal it lacks in prudence.  

    What I mean by that is, more or less, that the logical consequence of approaching the solemn magisterium as the proximate rule of faith, and as the only infallible one, is that one actually undermines pretty much every reason one has for being a traditionalist.  The Church is not actually under attack if we look at her the way that those who deny BoD do.  She's teaching error, just as she always has.  More people today are believing it than before, but there's really no conciliar/Catholic dichotomy that we hear so much about.  There's just the Catholic Church, full of heretics and impious believers, tricking souls as she is by no means forbidden by providence to do so.  So, while an individual BoD denier may indeed never attend the new mass, not follow John Paul's canon law or catechism, he is forbidden by his own approach to learning the faith from concluding that this is a different Church.  It's the same Church, just a bit more error than usual.  Now, some people already believe this explicitly, and that's a shame.  But for those who make an effort to distinguish, for those who believe "these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches," an impetus still exists to distinguish from Christ's Bride and the Whore of Babylon.  For those people, I hope that the unsustainable logic of their approach to Catholic learning becomes clearer.  If the solemn level is the exclusive level by which the Church teaches infallibly, there's no Pascendi.  There's no Syllabus of Errors.  There's certainly no reason to attach one's wagon to Archbishops Lefebvre or Thuc.  

    "But," [they would say], "Pascendi, The Syllabus, and the traditional clergy clearly agree with what was taught at the solemn level!  Therefore, they're 'safe'."  I would call this a self-serving exception.  In fact, BoD is attached to each of these authors.  And if we say that even a drop of poison ruins the whole pot of stew, why is it acceptable when the stew tastes so good?  Why don't we just take the good parts of Vatican II, like we take the good parts of Saint Pope Pius X, or pope Pius IX?  Most of Vatican II is orthodox.  Most of John Paul's catechism and canon law is fine.  But where are those on your shelves, next to those encyclicals?  Where are those on the forums, cited as authorities on some matter or another, like Pius X and Pius IX would be?  Now, humans are illogical-- we don't always act according to our principles.  But we should, and there is a significant rupture between how the BoD denier says we should learn the faith and how he actually does.  

    But to abstract out from the individual BoD denier and return to the point in general, we see that the Church is quite literally designed by God to include a "buffer" between us (the faithful) and solemn teaching.  Remember, the Catholic Church is a divine institution; whatever it has "by nature" (i.e., that which is intrinsic to its constitution, structure, and mission) was literally established that way by God's positive design for our salvation.  In Apostolic times, the Apostles set up dioceses and appointed their followers to distinct geographies, granting them spiritual custody of the faithful within that region, and this Apostolic tradition has continued over thousands of years.  And in each diocese, each bishop teaches his flock and, when needed, convenes with the pope and the rest of the bishops in the world to settle some controversy or another.  And after that, the bishops all return to their flocks and publish catechisms, teach sermons, etc. in light of what was defined.  At no point in history before the Internet did Catholics have the sort of immediate access to solemn teaching that they have today.  Councils weren't in their native language.  Council docuмents were written and re-written, never with the input, consultation, or invitation of the faithful.  Published in Latin, not disseminated to the faithful.  If it is truly God's intent that we, by default, learn the faith from the solemn level, He literally could not have picked a worse way to design His Church!  Because for thousands of years, poor simple Catholics have labored in the dark, usually entirely unaware of what happened at some council or another, or what was defined at some place or another.  The joys of the radical freedom of the twentieth century, am I right?  If anything, these times are not a chastisement but are quite a mercy, and God has finally found us worthy of learning the faith the way that He intended us to: through wide dissemination of primary texts, enabled by mass printing and the Internet.  

    Or, God designed His Church in the way that would be most conducive to the learning of the faith.  He arranged so that bishops were dispersed throughout the world, able to effectively communicate with the unique demographics and geographies over which they were princes, and promised that whenever they teach in union with Peter, they share in his infallibility (literally the definition of the OUM: the bishops dispersed throughout the world teaching in union with the pope).  That way, the Catholic world was able to faithfully believe from the very beginning, rather than only after two thousand years had passed.  The enigma of Vatican II confuses things slightly, but we know that the infallibility of the Church is the pope's infallibility, so we know that the guarantee of infallibility (in whatever manifestation) extends inasmuch as there is a pope.  No pope, no infallibility.  Quite simple, and the data (Bellarmine et al. + reality) supports it.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #28 on: August 30, 2017, 10:44:31 AM »
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  • The singular most fundamental reason that anyone denies BoD is that they do not believe the Church teaches it.  They do not believe that the Church teaches it because they believe that the Church only teaches the faithful at the solemn level.

    First Statement:  True.  I do not believe that the Church teaches BoD.

    Second Statement:  False.  In no way do I limit Magisterium to solemn teaching.  I just examine the context and the theological notes of this position on Baptism of Desire and I see it as not rising above that of a speculative opinion.  Sedevacantists in particular have a problem with putting everything within the Magisterium on the same level as solemn Magisterium.  SVs effectively turn every offhand comment in a lightweight papal allocution to being tantatmount to and on the same level as a solemn dogmatic definition.  There are degrees of truth and certainty even within the Magisterium.  And that is YOUR major error in pretending that BoD is dogma or even theologically certain.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The three errors of the Feeneyites
    « Reply #29 on: August 30, 2017, 10:49:55 AM »
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  • Lover of Truth,

    Somewhere you quoted St. Alphonsus as saying "it is de fide that men have been saved by BOD." I'll got find that, but if that's true, I think it's clear error.

    This is why you have to be careful even with the doctors.

    That's clearly an error.  St. Alphonsus did not say it that way for sure.  Even if one believes in a BoD as a theoretical possibility, there's zero proof that anyone has ever actually been saved in this manner.  His theological note of de fide for BoD is completely flawed.  He bases it primarily on a single papal letter (of dubious authorship) which wasn't defining anything but expressing an opinion based on the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose" (note, not from his own papal authority).  That completely lacks the notes required for something to be de fide.  But, then again, it's understandable, since St. Alphonsus did not have the benefit of the Vatican I definitions.