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Author Topic: The salvation of those outside the Church  (Read 6279 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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The salvation of those outside the Church
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2014, 12:31:18 PM »
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    As the Protestant denominations derive their theological doctrine by division and their truth by mere opinion and popular vote, sinful man can redirect his flawed interpretation of God’s Word to suit his own pleasure.  Those who disagree can then establish their own new ‘church’ and so it will go.  If a sect approves of divorce, so divorce will be allowed.  If a sect approves of the active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ lifestyle, so it will be allowed.  As the people go, so goes the democratic nation.  They may be sincere in their erroneous beliefs, but we are not saved by sincerity alone!  Both the blind leader and the blind follower were sincere.  Their sincere error landed them both in the pit according to Luke 6:39. -Obviously NOT Fenton




    Quote
    The notion or concept of the Catholic Church, conveyed in God's supernatural message, is tremendously complex. This society is represented to us basically as the association or group within which alone we may find salvific contact with God in Jesus Christ Our Lord. It is the ecclesia sanctorum, the community or the communion of the Saints. Yet it is so constituted in this world that a man may be a member of it without actually living the divine and supernatural life of grace. It is truly a society instituted directly and immediately by Our Lord during the course of His public life in this world. At the same time, however, it is just as truly the continuation and the ultimate status here on earth of the supernatural kingdom of God which has been in existence, as the militant Church of God in Christ, since the days of our first parents. It lives as the militant company of Our Lord's disciples throughout the entire world. In the various cities and districts of the world its members gather to constitute organized individual families or households of the faith in Christ. Yet, at the same time, it is always in a condition of pilgrimage in this world and in its cities. Its ultimate and eternal home is to be found only in the courts of Heaven. Fenton



    Quote from: During Fenton's lifetime and against which he said nothing, [i
    LG [/i]8]
    This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic,  which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth". This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity. --Lumen Gentium 8, according to the unclean spirit of Vat.II

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #46 on: July 30, 2014, 12:32:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    Quote

    As the Protestant denominations derive their theological doctrine by division and their truth by mere opinion and popular vote, sinful man can redirect his flawed interpretation of God’s Word to suit his own pleasure.  Those who disagree can then establish their own new ‘church’ and so it will go.  If a sect approves of divorce, so divorce will be allowed.  If a sect approves of the active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ lifestyle, so it will be allowed.  As the people go, so goes the democratic nation.  They may be sincere in their erroneous beliefs, but we are not saved by sincerity alone!  Both the blind leader and the blind follower were sincere.  Their sincere error landed them both in the pit according to Luke 6:39. -Obviously NOT Fenton




    Quote
    The notion or concept of the Catholic Church, conveyed in God's supernatural message, is tremendously complex. This society is represented to us basically as the association or group within which alone we may find salvific contact with God in Jesus Christ Our Lord. It is the ecclesia sanctorum, the community or the communion of the Saints. Yet it is so constituted in this world that a man may be a member of it without actually living the divine and supernatural life of grace. It is truly a society instituted directly and immediately by Our Lord during the course of His public life in this world. At the same time, however, it is just as truly the continuation and the ultimate status here on earth of the supernatural kingdom of God which has been in existence, as the militant Church of God in Christ, since the days of our first parents. It lives as the militant company of Our Lord's disciples throughout the entire world. In the various cities and districts of the world its members gather to constitute organized individual families or households of the faith in Christ. Yet, at the same time, it is always in a condition of pilgrimage in this world and in its cities. Its ultimate and eternal home is to be found only in the courts of Heaven. Fenton



    Quote from: During Fenton's lifetime and against which he said nothing, [i
    LG [/i]8]
    This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic,  which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth". This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity. --Lumen Gentium 8, according to the unclean spirit of Vat.II



    Your point is?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline MyrnaM

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #47 on: July 30, 2014, 06:14:06 PM »
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  • The naysayers of BOD are so scandalized by the Title CMRI used, although CMRI they did not compose it, yet Stubborn did the same thing here by using the scandalized title for his thread.

    Not one of them are scandalized by this news:

    Quote

    Satanic Fruits of Vatican II
    Vatican II Church Accepts a Male "Nun" Into Monastery
    "The time is right for a transgender nun." -- Tia Pesando
    Now Vatican II accepted Tia Pesando, a "transsɛҳuąƖ" woman, as a "Carmelite nun" into the monastery of London, Ontario. Pesando lived for thirty years as a man, then decided to "transition" to become a woman. She is not the first, however. Vatican II consecrated Joel Green as a "nun" of the Franciscan Servants of Jesus in 2002 under the regime of John Paul II.
    Vatican II effuses about the God of Love, but the God of Love is also the God of Just Judgment, the God of Justice, the God of Truth, and the God of Nature. Vatican II doesn't mention that. Sex/Gender is God-given at conception. It is not a choice. Sex (gender) is given by God and that the body reveals the divine plan. As such, humans are not free to choose or change their sex. But Vatican II doesn't care.


    They just turn their eyes to it and hope no one notices.  

    This is the thing about them, they ALWAYS accuse others of what they them self are doing.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #48 on: July 30, 2014, 07:58:58 PM »
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  • There are not enough facepalms in the Smilie box for your posts, Myrna.

     :facepalm:

    Whether or not CMRI came up with the title, CMRI PUBLISHED it.  That would be like the CMRI publishing an article entitled The Sins of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Blasphemous, no?  Same thing applies here.

    Stubborn was naming the thread after it because the article was the subject of this thread; unlike the CMRI who are promoting a thesis that backed up the title.  You are incapable of making the simplest logical distinctions and yet you think you are capable of spotting heresy and deposing popes.

    CMRI has been polluted from day one ... in many different ways.  Shuckardt certainly left a mark on that group.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #49 on: July 30, 2014, 08:33:44 PM »
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  • Stubborn published it when he pressed that reply.  Shame, shame

    I am shocked that YOU can and just did even think of saying what you said about the Blessed Mother.  Shame, shame.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #50 on: July 30, 2014, 08:37:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Stubborn published it when he pressed that reply.  Shame, shame

    I am shocked that YOU can and just did even think of saying what you said about the Blessed Mother.  Shame, shame.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:



    No, the CMRI should be ashamed because they meant it and weren't using it to illustrate a point.  And you should be ashamed of being affiliated with a group that would publish such things.

    Instead you have the audacity to defend a word for word contradiction of dogma.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #51 on: July 30, 2014, 08:57:34 PM »
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  • Ladislaus CMRI did very well published it. and illustrated a point.  A point that you can't stop talking about, see the title worked, everyone is reading it now, and learning the truth about EENS.

    This has been fun, but again, I do have daily duties to attend to.  

     :rahrah:
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #52 on: July 30, 2014, 09:30:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Ladislaus CMRI did very well published it. and illustrated a point.

     :rahrah:


    So now you "cheer" the denial of dogma.  You are offensive to pious ears, and the CMRI is nothing but rot.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #53 on: July 31, 2014, 01:29:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Started from another thread referencing this Post

    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    you have the nerve to say that I and/or CMRI denies EENS. Read their web site and prove it.


    CMRI has twice published an article entitled "The Salvation of Those Outside the Church" ... a WORD FOR WORD contradiction of EENS.


    I posted that article in the library on this forum...read it and weep, Ladislaus

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=26486&f=16&min=0&num=5
     
       



    I posted the below article in a readable format in order for Catholics here on CI  to enumerate the errors within this article from CMRI, written by Fr. Noel Barbara.

    I quickly was overwhelmed by the amount and scope of errors, and found that the below article could have been written by any Novus Oddo priest or bishop - or layperson for that matter.

    So I stopped pointing out the lies and falsehoods after only the first few lies in the article (in blue) and will leave the rest for other the Catholics here on CI to post the truth against the lies in the article from Fr. Noel Barbara.  








    THE SALVATION OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH as Ladislaus enunciated, is "a word for word contradiction of EENS"

         "There is only one universal Church, outside of which absolutely no one can be saved." (Infallibly decreed by Pope Innocent III in the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215) Gregory XVI gave enunciation to this dogma which is "one of the most important and most clearly enunciated" teachings of our religion.

         How are we to understand his words? The reason Fr. Noel Barbara asks: "how are we to understand his words?" after Gregory XVI just said the dogma means exactly what it says, is because Fr. Noel Barbara is about to write an essay in order to introduce a lie and explain why the words of both the dogma and Pope Gregory's enunciation of it actually do not mean what they say - this is done with the spirit of Vatican 2 in mind where even after interpretation, all papal docuмents remain ambiguous.

         As they were meant to be understood by the Apostles, This is the first outright lie. The First Vatican Council decrees that we must understand dogma "as once declared". Here we see Fr. Noel starts off his explanation with a lie. This is almost always the #1 essential step in the adulteration of dogma - to start off with a lie in order to change the meaning of the sacred dogma into a meaningless formula under the pretext of a better understanding - this is explicitly condemned by the First Vatican Council.  the Apostolic Fathers and all the Doctors.  The word of God can never change.  As our Master said, "The sky and the earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away" (Mark XIII:31).


         Whosoever wishes to be faithful to the Lord should
    "absolutely reject the heretical supposition that dogmas
    evolve, as a result of which their meaning can change and
    become different from that which the Church first imparted to
    them" ("Antimodernist Oath", Denzinger 2145,4).

         Such being the case, the Church today, as she has always
    done, clearly teaches that outside of her, no one can be saved.

         In the face of this, must one believe that everyone,
    without exception, who does not OFFICIALLY belong to the Church

    Another lie.  That makes two lies for F.N. Barbara.  He added the word "OFFICIALLY" without as much as any pretense of an addition.  ALL CAPS does not indicate words added but rather implies emphasis in the original as seen.

    Quote
    by means of the reception of Baptism and the public profession
    of the Catholic faith, is damned?  Not at all.  

    Another lie.  That makes three lies for F.N. Barbara.  To say that we can only know of salvation by means of the sacraments is not equivalent to passing judgment on anyone who does not receive the sacraments.  We simply do not know what happens to them, but whatever it is, it can't be the salvation that God provides by way of His Church, because the Church has infallibly defined it as such, with EENS.

    Here, he begins by quoting solid Catholic material from Blessed Pius IX:

    Quote
    Listen to the
    words of Pope Pius IX: "God in his sovereign bounty and mercy
    does not allow that a person who is not guilty of a voluntary
    fault should be subject to eternal punishment" (Letter "Quanto
    conficiamur").  

    And then, in the manner St. Pius X warned us about in Pascendi, whereby a Modernist would write Catholic doctrine on one page, and then turn the page to find heresy, F.N. Barbara doesn't bother turning a page to get to his heresy:

    Quote
    In order to help us understand the possibility
    of salvation for "non-Catholics",
    I shall review the nature of
    the Church, and how, by means of her, God in His Mercy
    regenerates souls and saves them.

    So, first there is no salvation outside the Church, and now there is.  That's what was said at your local parishes during Vatican II.  All they needed was LG 8 for that.

    As if two peas in a pod, here goes F.N. Barbara with his pseudo-Vat.II ambiguity, not without first paying lip service to the truth, of course:

    Quote


                               WHAT IS THE CHURCH?

         Recalling an expression used by St. Paul (Col. I:24), Pope
    Pius XII said that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ:
    "Mystici Corporis Christi quod est Ecclesia", and, in doing so,
    confirmed the answer Joan of Arc gave to her judges when she
    said: "In my opinion the Church and Christ are one and the same
    thing."

         "The Church", said dom Grea, "is Christ Himself; the
    Church is the "fullness" and the achievement of Christ, "His
    Body" and his true and mystical growth: The Church which is His
    Body, and the fullness of him who is filled all in all (Eph.
    I:22-23).  And so it is that the Church occupies among the
    works of God the very place of Christ.  Christ and the Church
    are one and the same work of God" ("L'Eglise et sa constitution
    divine", p. 18).

         Surely it is clear from this that there can only be one
    institution which is the authentic Church of Christ.

         HOW ARE WE TO RECOGNIZE THE CHURCH?

         Foreseeing that innumerable Churches would claim to be
    this unique institution, Christ took great pains to delineate
    the nature of His Church and to distinguish it from all the
    others.  He did this at Caesarea Philippi.  After having told
    Simon bar Jona that he was Peter, Jesus declared "upon this
    rock I will build my Church" (Matt. XVI:18).  The Master did
    not say "a Church", but "MY Church".  This possessive adjective
    makes it abundantly clear that of all the religious societies
    which claim to belong to Him, only the Roman Catholic Church,
    which is built upon the rock of Peter, is the authentic Church
    of Christ; the others, which reject this rock, cannot be such.
    The dogma in question must therefore be understood in this
    manner: "Outside of the Roman Catholic Church, absolutely no
    one will be saved".[1]

         The Mystical Body of Christ, the true Church, participates
    in the mystery of the Incarnation.  Just as her Head, that is
    Jesus Christ, is both true Man and true God, so also the
    Catholic Church is at one and the same time both human and
    divine, a material and a spiritual entity.

         THE BODY OF THE CHURCH, that which renders her visible and
    constitutes as it were "a flag raised over the nations", is
    first of all those members of which she is composed.  Also
    pertaining to the body of the Church is the public profession
    of the faith by these members, the sensible signs by means of
    which she communicates to them the divine life, and finally,
    the entire ensemble of her rites and monuments.

         THE MEMBERS OF HER BODY are all those who have received
    the laver of regeneration or Baptism.  This is the sacrament of
    the faith which Jesus instituted in order to bring together all
    those whom the Father had called and chosen (John XV:16,
    VI:44).  As members of a visible body, they publicly profess
    the Catholic faith.

         OUTSIDE AND SEPARATED FROM THE BODY OF THE CHURCH are all
    those who have been so unfortunate as to commit the sin of
    heresy, schism or apostasy, as well as those who have been
    excluded by legitimate authority.

         THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH or her divine aspect is above all
    the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus.  It is He who gives life
    to the Church, who illuminates and directs her.  It is also
    this divine life which, descending from the Head, vivifies all
    the members and binds them together.  Finally, the Soul of the
    Church consists of "the theological virtues faith, hope and
    charity, the gifts of grace from the Holy Spirit, and all the
    celestial treasures which are derived from the merits of Christ
    the Redeemer, and of the Saints" ("Catechism of Saint Pius X").

         BELONGING TO THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH are all those in whom
    the Holy Spirit dwells.[3]  These are those who have theological
    faith, possess the divine life and are in a state of grace.
    The primary effect of the Holy Spirit in the soul is to
    sanctify it.

         While sinners have separated themselves from the Soul of
    the Church, they remain always united to her body.  Pope Pius
    XII recalled this in his encyclical "Mystici Corporis": "It is
    necessary to recognize that the infinite mercy of Our Lord
    makes it impossible for Him to refuse a place in His Mystical
    Body to those whom He had previously not refused a place at his
    banquet table (Matt. IX:11).  For no fault, not even a most
    serious sin - schism, heresy and apostasy apart - can separate
    one from the Body of the Church."

         SEPARATED FROM THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH are all those who,
    as a result of some mortal sin, are no longer in a state of
    grace.  They have in effect expelled the Holy Spirit from their
    souls because He cannot live in a soul that is stained by
    mortal sin.

                            SALVATION COMES FROM GOD

         It is a truth of our faith, one that as Catholics we must
    believe, that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
    Since the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, it is by means
    of her that salvation is of necessity made available to us.  In
    what way does this happen?

         THE ORDINARY MANNER

         God bestows His gifts with consummate grace and
    generosity.  In order to make it possible for men to save
    themselves more easily, His Son instituted and made available
    to them true sources of grace in the sacraments.  God has
    obligated Himself to give us graces by these sensible signs,
    and He is always faithful to His promises.  Each time a
    sacrament is properly administered, by one who has the power to
    do so, and as long as men do not hinder His action, God is
    obliged to provide them with the grace signified.  This is the
    constant teaching of the Catholic Church.

         THE EXTRAORDINARY MANNER

         If the Church teaches that the sacraments instituted by
    the Son of God made man oblige the Father to give His graces to
    whomsoever validly receives them, she has never taught that His
    generosity is restricted to this methodology.  If the Lord was
    obliged to give those who labored the entire day the denarius
    he had agreed upon, His Son reminds us that He did no wrong in
    giving as much to those to whom He had promised nothing.  Who
    can be so presumptuous as to pretend that He is not allowed to
    do as He wishes?  What upright soul can take offense at His
    generosity?  

    While we cannot pretend that God is "not allowed to do as He wishes," this is a strawman argument against an unspecified "opponent" for to say that God binds the Church and all mankind to His Commandments is not proclaiming what man allows God to do or not to do.  God can indeed do as He wishes, but the real presumption on man's part is to leap to the error that God is prone to contradict Himself and to act against all revealed truth.  That is to say, we can be sure that God, unlike F.N. Barbara, is not going to lie to us.  God is not going to act in a way that contradicts Himself.  God is not obliged to do anything that goes against His own word.  

    F.N. Barbara here sounds a bit like the schoolyard atheist who says, "Okay since you claim that your God can do anything, let's see Him create a rock too big and heavy for Him to lift."

    Quote
    (Read Matt. XX:1-16).  It is then clear that God,
    who has promised to give His graces through these ordinary
    means of the sacraments, can also give them in an extraordinary
    manner.  Holy Scripture provides us with numerous examples of
    this.  Thus, Saint Dismas, the good thief, received the grace
    of regeneration without any sacrament,  

    What does Baptism have to do with St. Dismas, who died in the old dispensation?  There was no sacrament of Baptism at the time of the Crucifixion.  This is lunacy at best.  What about all the other people who died that day?  They had no Baptism, either.  Is the ultimate judge, F.N. Barbara, condemning all of them to hell??

    Quote
    and this with such
    efficacy that Our Lord said to him, "This very day you will be
    with me in Paradise" (Luke XXIII:43).

         Again, it was without the medium of any sacrament that the
    Virgin Mary, the Apostles and "the brothers who numbered around
    120" (Acts I:15), "all together in one place" (II:1), were
    filled with the Holy Spirit and were confirmed.

    But the Descent of the Holy Ghost WAS a sacrament.  And just as Our Lady received the singular privilege of being filled with the Holy Ghost at the moment of her Immaculate Conception, who are we to put limits on God for what He can do with the recipients of the day's grace at Pentecost?  That was at least the third time for our Blessed Mother, BTW.

    Quote


         The centurion Cornelius, his parents, servants and most
    intimate friends also received the Holy Spirit and were
    gathered into the Soul of the Church before even being Baptized
    by Peter.  Baptism brought them into the Body of the Church,
    but not into her Soul, for they were joined to the latter as
    soon as they received the Holy Spirit (Acts X:44-48).

         Closer to our own time we can cite the case of Ratisbonne,
    a Jew who was overcome by grace on January 20, 1842 while in
    the church of Saint Andrew in Rome.  He changed from a state of
    complete disbelief and hostility to the Church to one of
    complete acceptance of the Catholic faith.  At the same time he
    received a knowledge of the Christian mysteries that he had
    never studied.  Like his co-religionist Paul of Tarsus, Baptism
    attached Ratisbonne only to the Body of the Church.  He
    belonged to the Soul of the Church from the moment of his
    conversion, thanks to the virtue of theological faith.

         These examples show with a certitude which cannot be
    denied that it is possible to belong to the Soul of the Church
    without belonging to her Body, and that God can bestow His
    graces in an extraordinary manner which is independent of the
    sacraments.

    While we cannot place limits on the infinite providence of God, neither can we proclaim the manner by which God would bestow such generosity.  For if it is just the same for one being baptized as one dying with some vague longing for something good having never heard of the Church or the "Trinity" (except perhaps to kill anyone who utters it), then there is no need for any missionaries to evangelize anyone, but that is not what Jesus Christ commanded, is it?

    Quote


         WHO IS ASSURED OF HIS SALVATION?

         It is important that we remember that what saves us from
    eternal damnation is not belonging to the Body of the Church,
    but rather belonging to the Soul of the Church.  

    So here we leap from a Church with an inseparable soul, to a kind of zombie Church that has no soul.  The Church of the Living Dead.  F.N. Barbara perhaps wants to produce a horror movie, but he missed his calling.

    Quote
    The Church has
    always taught that the baptized who die in a state of mortal
    sin which has not been forgiven, are damned despite their
    belonging to the Body of the Church.  

    Maybe F.N. Barbara has written his own dictionary.  He must have a different idea of what "always" means.  Maybe he's been reading Ambrosia's posts too much, where he says that BoD has "always and everywhere" been taught in the Church.

    Quote
    Without doubt, it is not
    possible for those who refuse to attach themselves to the Body
    of the Church to belong to her Soul.  But is it possible for
    those who, without any fault of their own, cannot receive
    baptism of water or explicitly formulate an act of Catholic
    faith in order to be part of the Body of the Church to belong
    to the Soul of the Church and be assured of their salvation?

    Here he goes again, placing limits on the providence of God.  News flash:  Just because someone claims to desire Baptism is not the same thing as God knowing that they do in fact desire it.  

    Quote

    The response to this question provides us with the solution to
    the problem which the salvation of non-Catholics raises.

    You mean the problem that the infallible definition of the Church raises in the minds of those who reject this dogma, like F.N. Barbara?  That problem?

    Quote


         By means of the letter "Quanto conficiamur" given to the
    Italian episcopacy (on August 10, 1863), Pius IX clarified this
    matter in a striking manner.  

    Wait.  You skipped a paragraph.  I wonder why?  (Actually, I don't wonder at all.)

    Quote
    "We know", he said, "that those
    WHO ARE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT OF OUR MOST HOLY RELIGION, AND WHO
    OBSERVE WITH CARE THE NATURAL LAW AND ITS PRECEPTS, written by
    God in the hearts of all men, AND WHO ARE DISPOSED TO OBEY GOD,
    and who live a life which is honest and upright, can, with the
    aid of the light of divine grace, acquire eternal salvation."

         If they can acquire eternal life without belonging to the
    Body of the Church, it is because they are united to her Soul.  

    There we go again.  Not a direct quote.  Added words.  Theological speculation.  Who needs any pope when you've got the Barbara?

    Quote

    Under what conditions does this occur?  The papal text goes on
    to explain.

                                THE NON-CATHOLICS

         This phrase is very vague.  It designates individuals who
    span the spectrum from schismatic Christians to atheists, and
    embraces in between a host of religious groups, both Christian
    and non-Christian.  If all, in so far as they are non-Catholic,
    are outside the Ark of Salvation, not all have the same degree
    of difficulty in order to overcome the obstacles and enter into
    this Ark.  The followers of Photius (the Orthodox) need only
    accept those dogmas which relate to the primacy and
    infallibility of the Pope.[2]  

    What about EENS, and the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption of Our Lady, among other dogmas defined since 1054?  

    Oh, BTW, that doesn't include BoD, which has never been defined.  The Orthodox don't have to believe in BoD, or in F.N. Barbara for that matter.

    Quote
    The followers of Luther, who
    deny almost all the Catholic dogmas, have much greater
    obstacles to overcome.  

    But they don't have to overcome BoD because they already believe it.  Wait.  So they're a lot like F.N. Barbara then, no?   :scratchchin:

    Quote
    As for the Jews and Muslims, obstinate
    in their opposition to the divine mysteries (the Trinity and
    Christology), they are faced with the problem of denying
    principles that are fundamental to their religion if they wish
    to truly enter into the way of salvation.

    That much is true enough.

    Quote


         With regard to these latter and all those who deny the
    mysteries of God, it is necessary to make the following point.
    If it is possible that non-Catholics can belong to the Soul of
    the Church while in good faith knowing nothing of the divine
    Mysteries,  

    In other words, like Bishop Sheen says, "It is by our ignorance that we are saved."

    He was gung-ho Vat.II, you know.  And that was at the root of it:  Americanism, a condemned heresy.

    News flash number TWO:  Explicit faith in the Trinity and in the divinity of Jesus are necessary for salvation.  Crack open a copy of the Athanasian Creed some fine day.

    Quote
    this is absolutely impossible for those who
    blaspheme against them.  Those who imprecate (blaspheme
    against) these mysteries clearly manifest that they are not
    animated by the good Spirit and that they do not belong to the
    Soul of the Church .

                      NECESSARY CONDITIONS WHICH MUST BE FULFILLED
             FOR NON-CATHOLICS TO BELONG TO THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH

         INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

         This is the error in which those who without any fault on
    their part find themselves.  It presumes good faith.  

    So now, you see, not only are we saved by our ignorance (which is nowhere to be found in Scripture otherwise the Bible would have been a JOKE all along!) but our ignorance is an "error" according to F.N. Barbara.  We are henceforth saved by our error.  

    Tell me more!

    Quote
    It can be
    met with among those to whom the true religion has never been
    presented,  

    Translation  Literally this sentence says:

    "The true religion has never been presented to those among with it can be met."

                                                   Get it?  

    Should we appreciate F.N. Barbara's clarity now, or wait for it to show up first?

    Quote
    and among those to whom it has been presented and to
    whom, despite this, it does not appear to be the truth.  Such
    is to be found in parts of the world which are completely
    adherent to the schismatic churches or some other cult, such as
    Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, etc.  

    Let's just cut to the chase:  Non-Catholics in this day and age are all invincibly ignorant.  Let's get on to something more understandable, why don't we?

    So, how about them Giants!  What do you suppose their ERA is gonna look like come September?

    Quote
    This ignorance excuses
    those involved of all culpability.  One calls this invincible
    because they are prevented from abandoning their errors
    precisely because they believe they are adhering to the truth.

    How about this:  They're prevented from abandoning their errors because God's Church has ostensibly tossed out her infallible dogmas in place of Freemasonic religious liberty, false ecuмenism and false collegiality, all of which is based on BoD and salvation by NSAA, which see.

    Quote


         Invincible ignorance only excuses the faults committed
    against the existence, the nature and the demands of the one
    true religion.  It never excuses those faults that go against
    the precepts of natural law since such are "written in the
    hearts of all men by God Himself".

    How prudent of F.N. Barbara to be so scrupulous in his prejudgment of God's justice.

    Quote


         IT IS NECESSARY TO CAREFULLY OBEY THE NATURAL LAW AND ALL
    ITS PRECEPTS.

         Among the demands of this law, and in fact of primary
    importance, are our duties towards God.  Whatever his state or
    condition, man is obliged to recognize the existence of God,
    His sovereignty, and believe that He rewards man for the good
    that he does, and punishes him for the evil that he does.
    "Without faith", St. Paul affirms, "it is impossible to please
    God.  It is necessary for a person who comes to God to believe
    that He exists, that He rewards those that seek after Him"
    (Heb. XI:6).  Such excludes from salvation all those non-
    Catholics who are atheists, be they of the militant or
    indifferent variety.

         We know from St. Paul the reasons for their culpability.
    "Because that which is known of God is manifest in them.  For
    God hath manifested it unto them.  For the invisible things of
    Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being
    understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also,
    and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.  Because that, when
    they knew God, they have not glorified Him as God, or given
    thanks" (Rom. I:19-21).  The Church recalled this teaching of
    the faith at Vatican I: "If anyone says that the one and true
    God, our Creator and Lord, cannot be known with certitude by
    means of His works, thanks to the natural light of human
    reason, let him be anathema" (Const. "Dei Filius", Denz.
    1806).

         IT IS NECESSARY TO BE DISPOSED TO OBEY GOD AND IN ALL
    THINGS TO DESIRE HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

         In his Encyclical "Mystici Corporis Christi", Pope Pius
    XII, after having distinguished between those who are actually
    incorporated into the Church, and those who are united only by
    desire to her soul, adds: "However, one should not think that
    any kind of desire to be part of the Church suffices for the
    salvation of one's soul.  The desire required is one animated
    by perfect charity".  In so stating, Pius XII was but
    reiterating the third condition specified by Pius IX.

         The law of love should express itself by action rather
    than by words: "It is not all those who say Lord, Lord, but
    those who do the will of my Father who will enter into the
    kingdom of heaven" (Cf. Matt. VII:21).

         This disposition in everything to do the will of God is an
    indication of their implicit but true desire to adhere to the
    Catholic Church.  Their faith in God is not dead because it is
    productive of fruit.  In essence, they are not content merely
    with believing; they make their conduct conform to their
    belief, and this concordance of their will with that of God
    makes them implicitly, but truly, desire the Baptism that Jesus
    instituted in order to incorporate them into His Church if they
    are not Christian, and makes them disposed to abjure the errors
    which maintain them outside of the Church if they are misled
    and are in a schismatical or heretical sect.  Unquestionably,
    if they were aware of the fact, they would abjure their errors,
    as they are well disposed to submit to His will.  It is this
    disposition, this charity which God has given them, which
    inclines them to "do the will of the Father in Heaven", and
    which gathers them into the soul of the Church.

         ARE YOU NOT SETTING UP IMPOSSIBLE CRITERIA?

         Some think that all these conditions cannot be fulfilled,
    especially among those souls that have never known the true
    religion.  As they see it, to demand such criteria is
    equivalent to condemning virtually all non-Catholics to eternal
    damnation.  But they are quite wrong.  Those who see things in
    this way forget the words of Jesus to His disciples when they
    questioned Him precisely on the issue of how it was possible
    for anyone to save his soul: "With men it is impossible, but
    not with God: for all things are possible with God" (Mark
    X:27).

         If God helps non-Catholics to save their souls outside of
    the norms established by His Son, it is because He would "have
    all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
    (I Tim. II:4).  This desire induces the Father to continuously
    draw souls (John VI:44) that His Son chooses (John XV:16).  In
    order to enlighten them, He normally uses the ministers of His
    Church.  But this habitual disposition in no way hinders Him
    from drawing some souls directly and without any minister
    whatsoever, and regardless of the situation in which they find
    themselves.  God, who wishes the salvation of every soul,
    provides every soul with the necessary graces.  To that degree
    that a given soul responds to graces bestowed, it receives yet
    further graces, "for it is God that worketh in you, both to
    will and to accomplish" (Phil. II:13).  It is thus that the
    most profound transformations occur little by little in souls
    of good will and dispose such souls above all to desire to do
    the will of God whom they adore "in truth".  Not all these
    souls are visited with extraordinary graces which transform
    them "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. XV:52)
    as occurred to Saul or Ratisbonne.  It is "the wisdom of God
    which visits them ... for wisdom is more active than all active
    things ...  Wisdom is the splendor of the eternal light ...
    which renews all things and through the nations conveyeth
    herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God ...  She
    reacheth from one end of the world to the other and ordereth
    all things sweetly" (Wisdom, VII:24-27, VIII:1).  This is that
    sweetness "for the forgiveness of their sins"; this is that
    "visit of the rising Sun from on high[4] which enlightens those
    who are in darkness and in the shadow of death and directs them
    in the way of peace" that Zacharias sang of in his "Benedictus"
    canticle which was and is in effect "the entrails of the
    mercy[5] of our God" (Luke I:78-79).

                   A CATHOLIC RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION RAISED

         We are able, in complete accord with Catholic teaching, to
    respond in the affirmative to the question which was raised
    above.  Yes indeed, through the great mercy of our God, it is
    possible that non-Catholics belong to the Soul of the Church by
    an implicit desire, by a desire animated by perfect charity,
    even though they do not belong to the visible Body of the
    Church.

         Are there many such?  Only God Himself knows.  "The works
    of man, Ecclesiastes tells us, are in the hands of God, and man
    knoweth not whether he be worthy of love or hatred" (IX:1).
    Only Jesus, the good pastor "knows His sheep ... even those
    that are not yet of His sheepfold" (John X:14&16).  As for us,
    if we truly love our master, we should hope that the number of
    non-Catholics who belong to the soul of the Church will always
    increase.  And in order to be sure that such a desire is not
    void of content, we should work as hard as we can to enlighten
    such souls, above all in praying for them and in making
    sacrifices in order that God might, by means of His Holy
    Spirit, enlighten them so that they might be renewed in their
    dispositions with regard to the true religion.

         Now, even though these non-Catholics belong to Christ by
    means of their union with the Soul of His Church, one should
    nevertheless never forget that they are in a state "where no
    one can be sure of his eternal salvation; for, as the Pope
    assures us, they are deprived of those many and most important
    supports and heavenly favors that can only be found within the
    bosom of the Catholic Church" ("Mystici Corporis Christi").
    Let us consider some of those helps of which they are deprived.

         The Roman Catholic Church is HIS Church.  It is the Church
    to whom Our Lord confided all that He learned of His Father
    (John XV:15), and it is the ministers of His Church that He
    sent forth as His Father sent Him (John XX:21), to teach all
    nations to observe EVERYTHING that He commanded (Matthew
    XXVIII:19-20).  Outside of this Church souls lack access to ALL
    that He taught.  Now Jesus warned His own that "if you continue
    in my word ... you will know the truth and the truth will make
    you free" (John VIII:31-32).  Being separated from His Church,
    non-Catholics are bound to be in error on one or more points.
    Now, just as the truth frees and sanctifies those that accept
    it (John XVII:17), so also is error the work of the devil which
    enslaves those who follow it (John VIII:44).

         It is also to HIS Church that Jesus confided the seven
    sacraments; non-Catholics are deprived of this, and this
    deprivation can only make their perseverance in the path of
    salvation more precarious.  While there is no doubt but that
    some of the sects have preserved the priestly function intact
    and this for them is a source of grace, unfortunately for them,
    they use it in a reprehensible manner.  For, in effect, it is
    to HIS Church that the sacraments were confided, and not to
    those who have broken away from her.  In conferring on the
    ministers that she ordains this inamissible power (i.e., a
    power that cannot be lost), the Church is placing her
    confidence in them.  Never would she have confided this power
    to them if she thought they would defect from her.  Surely any
    honest individual can understand that a person who leaves a
    society no longer has the right to use those powers which said
    society confided to him.  If he does so in spite of this
    defection, he is guilty of an abuse for which he will one day
    have to answer.

         Sacraments conferred under such circuмstances are
    productive of [spiritual] life to those who accept them in
    perfect good faith and place no obstacle to their reception.
    For all others, they are productive of spiritual death.

         Another support which is by no means the least of which
    non Catholics - schismatics apart - are deprived is that of the
    sacrament of penance.  If even within the Church where one
    enjoys the greatest of possible benefits, one must "work out
    one's salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. II:12), how
    much more one should tremble for the salvation of those who do
    not belong to her body!  The ability to commit mortal sin is
    not limited to Catholics.  Now it is a dogma of our faith that
    every mortal sin which is not forgiven merits by its very
    nature eternal hell.  While it is easy to commit a mortal sin,
    it is much more difficult to escape its effects.  This is the
    reason why Our Lord instituted the sacrament of penance which
    the Fathers of the Church call a second baptism and the second
    safeguard of salvation.  While a Catholic who finds himself
    incapable of achieving a state of perfect contrition can still
    be forgiven by means of this sacrament of penance, the
    non-Catholic who is deprived of this sacrament can only be
    forgiven by attaining a state of perfect contrition.[6]  From
    this fact alone one can see how privileged, with regard to the
    matter of salvation, are those who belong to the Body of the
    Church and who as a result can so easily enjoy the treasures of
    her graces.  And as opposed to these, how disadvantaged are
    those who are deprived of such favors!  Pius XII spoke to us of
    those who are in a state "where no one can be sure of his
    eternal salvation".  One should not be surprised that God
    wished these facilities, and His Son has established HIS
    Church, precisely to make salvation easier to those who wished
    to enter it.

                                   CONCLUSION

         It is precisely because the true Church of Christ took
    this dogma seriously that she has desired to be a missionary
    Church since Apostolic times.  In this she is but reflecting
    the word of the Master who made her aware of the terrible
    danger that those who do not know her to be the only Ark of
    Salvation and continue to live in the darkness of idolatry, or
    other religions, or in heresy and schism, run with regard to
    their eternal salvation.  This is why she sends forth so many
    thousands of her sons and daughters at the risk of their lives
    to enlighten non-believers.

         And in so doing the Catholic Church is aware of the fact
    that she is responding faithfully to the command of Our Lord:
    "Go forth to all the nations and make disciples, baptizing them
    in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
    teaching them to observe all those things which I have
    commanded you.  He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
    but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Matt. XXVIII:
    19-20; Mark XVI:16).

         It is because of her faithfulness to her Lord that this
    same Catholic Church has a special Mass entitled "De Progaganda
    Fide" in her Missal, a Mass in which she recalls that "her Lord
    is great and infinitely worthy of praise; for He is more
    powerful than all the other gods.  FOR ALL THE GODS OF THE
    PEOPLES ARE ONLY DEMONS" (Tractus).

         It is again because of her faithfulness to her Lord who
    became flesh and offered himself on the Cross for the salvation
    of all men that the Catholic Church multiplies her prayers and
    beseeches her children to make sacrifices "in order that God
    might provide workers for the harvest" (Matt. IX:38), and that
    He might send His Holy Spirit to renew the face of the earth
    and enlighten those who are "seated in darkness and in the
    shadow of death" (Luke I:79).  The Apostle strongly recommends
    this practice to his dear Timothy: "I desire first of all that
    supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving be made
    for all men ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of
    God our Saviour" (I Tim. II:1-3).

                                     

    ENDNOTES:

    [1]  "In order to define and to describe this true Church of
    Jesus Christ - that is to say the "holy Catholic Apostolic and
    Roman Church" - one can find no finer expression, none that is
    more divine, than "the Mystical Body of Christ" (Pope Pius XII,
    Encyclical "Mystici Corporis Christi").

    [2]  Invincible ignorance of these dogmas is easily met with
    among a people and clergy that are badly educated.

    [3]  Whosoever belongs to the Soul of the Church possesses the
    Spirit of Jesus.

    [4]  "Oriens ex alto", a biblical expression designating the
    Messiah (Cf. Zacharias VI:12), the splendor of the eternal
    Light, the Sun of Justice "that enlighteneth EVERY MAN who
    comes into the world" (John I:9).

    [5]  A footnote in The French Bible (of Fillion) tells us that
    this Canticle is the most powerful expression of the most
    intimate mercy of God who wishes to save all men.

    [6]  The distinction is easily seen if one considers the Act of
    Contrition.  An imperfect act of contrition is one which is
    made because of the fear of the loss of heaven and the pains of
    hell.  A perfect act of contrition requires that it be for the
    love of God (i.e., perfect charity) who is infinitely good and
    worthy of all our love.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Stubborn

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #54 on: July 31, 2014, 04:36:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    There are not enough facepalms in the Smilie box for your posts, Myrna.

     :facepalm:

    Whether or not CMRI came up with the title, CMRI PUBLISHED it.  That would be like the CMRI publishing an article entitled The Sins of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Blasphemous, no?  Same thing applies here.

    Stubborn was naming the thread after it because the article was the subject of this thread; unlike the CMRI who are promoting a thesis that backed up the title.  You are incapable of making the simplest logical distinctions and yet you think you are capable of spotting heresy and deposing popes.

    CMRI has been polluted from day one ... in many different ways.  Shuckardt certainly left a mark on that group.


    Well that makes things much clearer. I never really looked into CMRI but now I know why that group and the rest of the CMRIers here are so screwed up - Shuckardt. I did not know that till now.

    Thank you Ladislaus, a lot of questions have just been answered for me.

    It is no freaking wonder the obsessed NSAAer SVs on this site are NOer SVs - we have a bunch of nutcase Shuckardtites posting.

    Makes me sad actually.



     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JPaul

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #55 on: July 31, 2014, 08:03:09 AM »
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  • May Heaven help the folks who are "learning" the faith from men such as these.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #56 on: July 31, 2014, 08:34:55 AM »
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  • Our Lord asked whether He would find faith on earth when He returned.  Clearly a rhetorical question.

    Out of several billion people alive on the planet there are perhaps a few thousand left who still believe in the Holy Catholic Church and the Incarnation.

    Enemies of the Church have been trying to undermine the Faith with subjectivism for about 500 years now, and it's all but accomplished.  Bishop Williamson has traced this quite admirably and has admitted that "we are all contaminated with" subjectivism to one degree or another.

    95% of even so-called "Traditional" Catholics don't believe in the Holy Catholic Church anymore but have embraced a gnostic/Pelagian/Protestant/naturalist view of the Church, the same view of the Church that Vatican II simply takes to its logical conclusions.

    95% of even so-called "Traditional" Catholics retain but a small pilot light of supernatural faith in their souls, and their concept of the faith revolves around externals such as Latin, vestments, incense, and bells.  They do not have the Faith of the Fathers.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #57 on: July 31, 2014, 09:59:03 AM »
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  • As far as Bishop Shuckardt is concerned, yes he was not a good example, and with the grace of God, those in control at that time, both religious and laity got rid of him.   I often wonder why God allowed Bishop Shuckardt to fall so far, but it was given me to understand that even Jesus Christ chose Judas.

    I also want to take this opportunity to apologize to those who do not accept the teaching of BOD as I do.  I apologize for any insults or uncharitable remarks I posted to them.  Sometime I get carried away and say things I should not have said, (one of my many faults) this is when I need to take a break and do some Penance.  

    I hope I am forgiven by those I have insulted.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #58 on: July 31, 2014, 10:17:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote

    It is important that we remember that what saves us from
    eternal damnation is not belonging to the Body of the Church,
    but rather belonging to the Soul of the Church.  The Church has
    always taught that the baptized who die in a state of mortal
    sin which has not been forgiven, are damned despite their
    belonging to the Body of the Church.  Without doubt, it is not
    possible for those who refuse to attach themselves to the Body
    of the Church to belong to her Soul.  But is it possible for
    those who, without any fault of their own, cannot receive
    baptism of water or explicitly formulate an act of Catholic
    faith in order to be part of the Body of the Church to belong
    to the Soul of the Church and be assured of their salvation?
    The response to this question provides us with the solution to
    the problem which the salvation of non-Catholics raises.



    This is all based in the Cushing error from the Letter of 49 that the CMRI so fiercely adheres to. It is a heretical mistake. Everything in the true Faith comes to us in visible, tangible, flesh and blood terms. Authentic Catholicism is incarnational.  The soul of the Church is not composed of non-Catholics. The soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost Himself, who only dwells in Catholics in the state of grace.

    This creepy article is peppered with lies and falsehoods and half-truths, among which is the principle that the "soul of the Church" is composed of parts!

    This could only come from someone who has not really studied Catholic theology.
    Maybe F.N. Barbara never really studied to be a priest.  Be that as it may...........

    By the sede standard which says that any pope who says or does things that are opposed to the Faith of Catholics must not therefore be the pope, and he loses his office, so too, any priest who says or does things that are opposed to the Faith of Catholics must not therefore be a priest, and he would therefore lose his office.

    Since F.N. Barbara, in this article published worldwide by the CMRI even though it contains and promotes heresy, has pronounced heresy and does a heretical act by publishing this heretical screed of which they should be ashamed, by the same principle sedes apply to the popes, F.N. Barbara therefore must not be a priest, that is, by the sede standard.

    [quote="Fr." Noel Barbara]
    In order to help us understand the possibility
    of salvation for "non-Catholics",
    I shall review the nature of
    the Church, and how, by means of her, God in His Mercy
    regenerates souls and saves them.


    [/quote]
    He might have as well had said the possibility of the impossible.  Or, he could have waited about 13 years and then just quote the hermeneutic of continuity.  Imagine, a so-called priest who rejects the Newpopes is more progressive in his Modernism than even the Newpopes whom he doesn't recognize as popes!  You can't make this stuff up.

    It's not just the "TITLE" of the screed, but the entire thing is full of it.


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    Offline Stubborn

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    The salvation of those outside the Church
    « Reply #59 on: August 01, 2014, 04:25:30 AM »
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  • That's right Neil, from start to finish that CMRI priest's article is obvious heresy in the extreme. The fact that the CMRIers here think this heresy is Church teaching is pretty scary.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse