Author Topic: The salvation of those outside the Church (Read 6242 times)

Cantarella · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2014, 06:28:30 PM »

Quote

It is important that we remember that what saves us from
eternal damnation is not belonging to the Body of the Church,
but rather belonging to the Soul of the Church. The Church has
always taught that the baptized who die in a state of mortal
sin which has not been forgiven, are damned despite their
belonging to the Body of the Church. Without doubt, it is not
possible for those who refuse to attach themselves to the Body
of the Church to belong to her Soul. But is it possible for
those who, without any fault of their own, cannot receive
baptism of water or explicitly formulate an act of Catholic
faith in order to be part of the Body of the Church to belong
to the Soul of the Church and be assured of their salvation?
The response to this question provides us with the solution to
the problem which the salvation of non-Catholics raises.

This is all based in the Cushing error from the Letter of 49 that the CMRI so fiercely adheres to. It is a heretical mistake. Everything in the true Faith comes to us in visible, tangible, flesh and blood terms. Authentic Catholicism is incarnational. The soul of the Church is not composed of non-Catholics. The soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost Himself, who only dwells in Catholics in the state of grace.

Stubborn · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2014, 05:35:49 AM »

Quote from: CMRI's Fr. Noel Barbara

... Listen to the words of Pope Pius IX: "God in his sovereign bounty and mercy
does not allow that a person who is not guilty of a voluntary
fault should be subject to eternal punishment" (Letter "Quanto
conficiamur"). In order to help us understand the possibility
of salvation for "non-Catholics", I shall review the nature of
the Church, and how, by means of her, God in His Mercy
regenerates souls and saves them.

Continuing with his deception, CMRI's Fr. Noel Barbara, presumably on purpose, mis-quotes Pope Pius IX's Quanto, conficiamur by quoting that snip out of context. He does this in order to explain his lie that there is indeed "the possibility of salvation for "non-Catholics".

No where does Quanto, conficiamur teach there is any such possibility - unless that is, you purposely ignore or reject the rest of the encyclical and mis-quote the snip as CMRI's Fr. Noel does. For Fr. Noel to use this encyclical to reference "the possibility of salvation for "non-Catholics" demonstrates his audacity - you can look up Pope Pius X's Pascendi to see what he says about what the chief characteristic of the Modernists is.

Once again, his lie is only a few sentences away from the truth - this is standard operating procedure which has worked well for centuries in order to deceive.

As Fr. Wathen puts it:
Incredible to say, it is the sentence which is printed in bold letters, which is used as proof that the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is not a Catholic dogma, and this, when it is sandwiched between two explicit affirmations of this truth. The sentence can be used to deny the dogma only if it is lifted out of its context between these two affirmations, and deliberately misunderstood or mistranslated. . . . . . . . .These words, taken in their context, can only mean that God unfailingly inducts such well-disposed individuals into the Church through conversion and the reception of Baptism. Obviously, whether the men of this world know when and how this happens is irrelevant and unnecessary.

Quote from: Quanto, conficiamur

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, [ignoring the rest, this is the only part he quoted] his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2014, 06:54:35 AM »

Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

Alcuin · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:06:25 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

How is one inside the Church without water baptism?

Stubborn · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:21:49 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

What "people"?

The entire CMRI heretical article is all about "the salvation of those outside the Church", as the title of the article states.

Alcuin · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2014, 07:42:54 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

How do you explain this quote:

Quote

Although those who are outside the Catholic Church through no fault of theirs can be saved, yet they are deprived of the inestimable advantages enjoyed by Catholics.

Catholic Apologetics, by Fr. John Laux 1928.

JPaul · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2014, 08:16:27 AM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

How do you explain this quote:

Quote
Although those who are outside the Catholic Church through no fault of theirs can be saved, yet they are deprived of the inestimable advantages enjoyed by Catholics.

Catholic Apologetics, by Fr. John Laux 1928.

This proposes that all men have been given an equal chance at seeking God, the truth, and salvation, and that God Himself, must make allowance for His own failure to give them something which they needed to be saved.

There are only two parties involved in a man's salvation, that man, and God.
If there is a fault by which, a man would lose his chance, and it is not his fault, then the obvious conclusion is that it God who is responsible.

But, God wills that all men would be saved, and provides the sufficient grace to each, that this might be accomplished. What a man does with this is his responsibility alone, and he cannot be without blame, if he fails in effort or perseverence.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2014, 08:24:41 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

The Baptism of Desire as fallible Church teaching has nothing to do with the salvation of non-Catholics. That is a modernist invention.

The Baptism of Desire is quite irrelevant to EENS.

I don't even believe that it's Church teaching at all, fallible or otherwise. Clearly the Church has tolerated and allowed the opinion, and it has become an extremely widespread opinion, but then again so has Religious Liberty and Ecuмenism. I consider the status of BoD to be a widely-held opinion of speculative theology. There's no proof that it was divinely revealed (in fact, the opposite seems to be indicated), and it does not derive by way of syllogism (implicitly) from any other revealed truth. Consequently it can never be a defined dogma, nor has the Church defined it as dogma.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2014, 08:26:28 AM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

How do you explain this quote:

Quote
Although those who are outside the Catholic Church through no fault of theirs can be saved, yet they are deprived of the inestimable advantages enjoyed by Catholics.

Catholic Apologetics, by Fr. John Laux 1928.

Yes, the Fr. Laux quote reduces Baptism to a necessity of precept. Whenever you employ language like "through no fault", it's a necessity of precept and not of means.

Fr. Laux's writing could have been a template for Vatican II.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** July 29, 2014, 08:28:07 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Keep in mind that people that present the Church's teaching on BOD teach that no one can be saved outside the Church and that there is no exceptions to this.

Very RARELY do they do this. LoT, YOU do not do this. You undermine EENS and the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation at every turn. St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine held BoD in such a way as to not compromise EENS. 99.9% of those who claim the authority of St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine would be condemned by these Doctors for their rejection of EENS and the necessity of the Sacraments. St. Robert Bellarmine would consider you a Protestant heretic.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #25 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:09:49 AM »

In Catholic theology there can be many apparent contradictions that are not contradictions at all. Our Lord told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him after His Resurrection, because He had not yet ascended to His Father, yet has Thomas probe His wounds before His Ascension. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are three Persons but one God is another apparent contradiction since 1 + 1 + 1 generally equals 3 instead of 1. The use of the term "generally" is meant to be amusing rather than relativistic. Math is a great subject because there is no gray area. Either the answer to the equation is true or it is false.

Another apparent contradiction is the fact that the Catholic Church has definite boundaries and the fact that She has no boundaries. The boundaries are that one must be baptized, profess the faith and submit to the Pope in order to be a member of the Church. She has no boundaries in that she can be located anyplace where immortal souls are and that there are no intelligence requirements or restrictions on what age, gender or race can be a member of the Catholic Church. A third apparent contradiction, as Father Fenton will make very clear in this series is the fact that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members can be saved. It is this third apparent contradiction that we have been trying to clarify in these installments, begun earlier this month with On the Mystical Body of Christ ,. There are many other apparent contradictions ("all have sinned" but the Blessed Virgin Mary never sinned) that could be mentioned but that would get us off track. But an interesting link in this regard can be found at Contra Faustum, Book XI at New Advent.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #26 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:23:44 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Another apparent contradiction is the fact that the Catholic Church has definite boundaries and the fact that She has no boundaries.

There's nothing merely "apparent" about it. Congratulations ! You have just become a proponent of Vatican II subsistence ecclesiology, for the Church "subsists" within its definite boundaries but then has other invisible elements outside those boundaries.

Stubborn · « **Reply #27 on:** July 29, 2014, 09:47:43 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Another apparent contradiction is the fact that the Catholic Church has definite boundaries and the fact that She has no boundaries.

There's nothing merely "apparent" about it. Congratulations ! You have just become a proponent of Vatican II subsistence ecclesiology, for the Church "subsists" within its definite boundaries but then has other invisible elements outside those boundaries.

Lover of Error stepped right in it again alright.

Quote from: Lumen Gentium

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth". This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #28 on:** July 29, 2014, 10:29:31 AM »

What we have hopefully learned so far is that what saves is sanctifying grace and that non-members of the Church can be in the state of sanctifying grace at the moment of death. To claim that a person who dies in a state of sanctifying grace is damned over a purported technicality would be unreasonable, but God and the Church He rules through are not unreasonable. The clear teachings on this issue will be reiterated authoritatively and infallibly in future installments.

Stubborn · « **Reply #29 on:** July 29, 2014, 11:28:27 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

What we have hopefully learned so far is that what saves is sanctifying grace and that non-members of the Church can be in the state of sanctifying grace at the moment of death. To claim that a person who dies in a state of sanctifying grace is damned over a purported technicality would be unreasonable, but God and the Church He rules through are not unreasonable. The clear teachings on this issue will be reiterated authoritatively and infallibly in future installments.

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins".

What is it that makes you reject this de fide teaching so much that you are obsessed with rewarding salvation to those outside the Church anyway?