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Author Topic: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness  (Read 13661 times)

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Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 08:07:44 AM »
It must be reiterated by further explication more than by redundancy that a non-member can be saved within the Church by being effectively joined to her in a proper theological sense. Additionally, we will come to understand that the Church's teaching in regards to her necessity for her salvation is the teaching of Christ rather than a "rigorist" dogma that she made up on her own.

Monsignor Fenton in his scholarly way will clearly explain the necessity of the Church for salvation. One cannot be saved apart from salvific contact with Christ and salvific contact with Christ can only be obtained through His Mystical Body on earth which is the Catholic Church. Actual graces can be obtained outside the Church but these graces are designed to help move one within the Church. Sanctifying grace cannot be obtained outside the Church. Actual grace nudges one to do what is necessary to be saved such as learning God's will and doing it. For instance a person outside the Church may feel the inclination to learn which Church it was that Christ founded. This is an actual grace from God that, if cooperated with, will help lead to one's ultimate salvation. If he cooperates with this grace he will actually try to find out which Church that is.

Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 08:08:57 AM »
Additionally, as stated above, the Church's teaching on her own necessity for salvation does not originate from the Church but from Christ Himself as we will see in this chapter. Some people who do not conform to the moral law condemn the Church as if she arbitrarily forbids things just to be mean. The Church is God's instrument on earth used to convey Divine Revelation. One who claims he does not like what the Church teaches in regards to marriage or any other moral teaching really does not like what God has revealed on the issue. It is quite unfortunate that some will not realize or acknowledge this fact until after they die and their eternal fate has already been sealed.


Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 09:50:05 AM »
In short, the poster does not truly believe that God can provide for the conversion and baptism of a non-Catholic, and so from there he goes into theological speculation to get around every single word in the dogmatic declarations on EENS, the sacraments, and justification. The mental gymnastics is so overwhelming that at the end he does not know what he believes and ends up with the idea that; Any non-Catholic can be saved if he dies in a state of sanctifying grace.

Well, that is like saying anyone that goes to heaven is saved. It says  nothing. Yet he thinks he's "cracked the code".

He says he is being submissive to the teachings of the Church, that the Church has not definitively decided on the issue of the damnation of those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, on the other hand, he rejects the teachings of the Church that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved. That is a teaching of the Church too, and yet he vehemently rejects it and hates the teaching with a passion. Interesting.

No theologian in at least the first 1500 years of the Church ever taught that Pagans, Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus etc... can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, and after that time period it was not till the late 1800 that some obscure theologians started pushing the speculation to the point where it was the majority opinion of the theologians at Vatican II.

We reject that teaching which was enshrined at Vatican II (indeed, the docuмent constantly brought forward by the poster, the 1949 letter, is referenced in Vatican II). We know that it is a teaching of the Church but it is speculative teaching, strictly tolerated at this point in time. We have the right to reject it. 

On the other side, the poster rejects the constant teaching of the Church that to be saved one must be a sacramentally baptized member of the Catholic Church in a state of grace at death. We have for years been bringing forward all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, theologians, that is teach the same as us. It is also Church teaching, and has a longer tradition than the recent streak of salvation by belief in a rewarder God. Not one such "strict interpreter" of EENS has ever been declared a heretic, indeed, they are all Saints. Yet the poster hates the teaching so much that he dedicates all his time to counter it.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 10:04:29 AM »
It must be reiterated by further explication more than by redundancy that a non-member can be saved within the Church by being effectively joined to her in a proper theological sense

You reiterate this opinion ad nauseam.  As I've pointed out, a lot of BoDers don't even buy Fenton's "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 10:05:09 AM »
In short, the poster does not truly believe that God can provide for the conversion and baptism of a non-Catholic, and so from there he goes into theological speculation to get around every single word in the dogmatic declarations on EENS, the sacraments, and justification. The mental gymnastics is so overwhelming that at the end he does not know what he believes and ends up with the idea that; Any non-Catholic can be saved if he dies in a state of sanctifying grace.

Spot on.