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Offline Last Tradhican

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The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
« on: August 23, 2017, 12:32:05 PM »
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  • No takers on the following question:

    If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?

    The root cause of the above posters monomaniacal obsession with the salvation of non-Catholics (Monomania - In 19th-century psychiatry, monomania was a form of partial insanity conceived as single pathological preoccupation in an otherwise sound mind.) is his doubts about  Divine Providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. His question above is indicative of his disbeliefs. That is the difference between him and those who believe that dogmas are the final word on a subject that was in dispute. He believes that a person can be snatched away from God's Providence, we do not. We would never ask such a question because God would never put us in that situation, only the poster could, and other men like him.

    Everything that a Catholic needs to know about speculative "What would Happen to a person if...." questions like you drum up in your head, is contained in this quote from St. Augustine, we keep repeating it, but you do not have the eyes to see, because of your illness, your doubts about divine providence and God's omniscience and omnipotence.

    The new member ryanaugustine hit the nail on the head when he said:

    LoT, if you fancy yourself a teacher then I, the uninstructed, must tell you that you are wrong.  You are not easily understood.  You post endless quotes and do not plug them into any context.  You do not explain anything in plain english.  You don't weave your quotes into any sort of whole cloth of understanding.

    I think, rather, that you post these quotes to try desperately to convince yourself that you are right and that Pax Vobis, for instance, cannnot possibly be so.

    But I don't want to malign you.  I do think, though, that you should avoid trying to instruct the ignorant until you yourself are clear about what you believe, why, and can present it properly.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 12:39:24 PM »
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  • St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:

    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 12:48:38 PM »
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  • "If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?"

    I've already answered this question for him.  I would not, by God's grace, deny Christ, no matter the consequences.  If that meant dying before receiving the Sacrament, then that's what it would mean.  I would accept it as God's will that He chose not to give me salvation and the beatific vision.  Glory to God for denying me this.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 02:25:55 PM »
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  • I'm honored to be the one that shows the warts of your heresy by holding it up to the light and reduce you to anger and lies and accusations in order to defend your heresies. What else do you have?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 02:39:05 PM »
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  • Co-sign
    You cannot admit the fallacy of your position.  Because you are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.  Or both.  But not neither.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 02:41:18 PM »
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  • All hail the chosen one…
    I'm honored to be the one that shows the warts of your heresy by holding it up to the light and reduce you to anger and lies and accusations in order to defend your heresies. What else do you have?
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 02:42:54 PM »
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  • All hail the chosen one…
    Thank you.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 03:14:48 PM »
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  • EVERY word he brings forward concerning eternal salvation, is rooted in his doubts about Divine Providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Until he understand St. Augustine's quote he will forever go on seeking teachers according to his own desires.

    "If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined....It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him ” 

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 03:39:56 PM »
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  • "If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?"

    I've already answered this question for him.  I would not, by God's grace, deny Christ, no matter the consequences.  If that meant dying before receiving the Sacrament, then that's what it would mean.  I would accept it as God's will that He chose not to give me salvation and the beatific vision.  Glory to God for denying me this.
    .
    It seems to me you're patronizing the short-sightedness of your opponent with this answer, Ladislaus.
    .
    I would answer differently. I would say that if I was hoping to receive Holy Baptism, that I would be confident that God would not deny me this grace if I honestly asked Him for it. Our Lord said that anything you ask the Father in my name you shall receive. How could it be any different for the most basic of human necessity? 
    .
    It comes down to faith in divine providence, that fulfilling His own requirement is not beyond His ability to provide. Therefore, He could send a saint to me as I lay dying as He has done in many instances throughout history. If for whatever reason that is not possible, He could send an angel if He so chose, but for me to place limits on God's omnipotence is one and the same as having no faith in God. Rather, our faith in the Providence of God should be sufficient. 
    .
    BTW LoT must be absolutely delighted to see his name being the topic of so many threads. This is his objective, to draw attention to himself, sheer and tangible vainglory, which is a miserable vice.
    .
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 03:53:05 PM »
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  • .
    It seems to me you're patronizing the short-sightedness of your opponent with this answer, Ladislaus.
    .
    I would answer differently. I would say that if I was hoping to receive Holy Baptism, that I would be confident that God would not deny me this grace if I honestly asked Him for it. Our Lord said that anything you ask the Father in my name you shall receive. How could it be any different for the most basic of human necessity?
    .
    It comes down to faith in divine providence, that fulfilling His own requirement is not beyond His ability to provide. Therefore, He could send a saint to me as I lay dying as He has done in many instances throughout history. If for whatever reason that is not possible, He could send an angel if He so chose, but for me to place limits on God's omnipotence is one and the same as having no faith in God. Rather, our faith in the Providence of God should be sufficient.
    .
    BTW LoT must be absolutely delighted to see his name being the topic of so many threads. This is his objective, to draw attention to himself, sheer and tangible vainglory, which is a miserable vice.
    .
    On that auspiciously timed, and accurate, note ignore is working now, for those it may not have been. Yay. Handy.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 08:07:44 AM »
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  • It must be reiterated by further explication more than by redundancy that a non-member can be saved within the Church by being effectively joined to her in a proper theological sense. Additionally, we will come to understand that the Church's teaching in regards to her necessity for her salvation is the teaching of Christ rather than a "rigorist" dogma that she made up on her own.

    Monsignor Fenton in his scholarly way will clearly explain the necessity of the Church for salvation. One cannot be saved apart from salvific contact with Christ and salvific contact with Christ can only be obtained through His Mystical Body on earth which is the Catholic Church. Actual graces can be obtained outside the Church but these graces are designed to help move one within the Church. Sanctifying grace cannot be obtained outside the Church. Actual grace nudges one to do what is necessary to be saved such as learning God's will and doing it. For instance a person outside the Church may feel the inclination to learn which Church it was that Christ founded. This is an actual grace from God that, if cooperated with, will help lead to one's ultimate salvation. If he cooperates with this grace he will actually try to find out which Church that is.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 08:08:57 AM »
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  • Additionally, as stated above, the Church's teaching on her own necessity for salvation does not originate from the Church but from Christ Himself as we will see in this chapter. Some people who do not conform to the moral law condemn the Church as if she arbitrarily forbids things just to be mean. The Church is God's instrument on earth used to convey Divine Revelation. One who claims he does not like what the Church teaches in regards to marriage or any other moral teaching really does not like what God has revealed on the issue. It is quite unfortunate that some will not realize or acknowledge this fact until after they die and their eternal fate has already been sealed.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 09:50:05 AM »
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  • In short, the poster does not truly believe that God can provide for the conversion and baptism of a non-Catholic, and so from there he goes into theological speculation to get around every single word in the dogmatic declarations on EENS, the sacraments, and justification. The mental gymnastics is so overwhelming that at the end he does not know what he believes and ends up with the idea that; Any non-Catholic can be saved if he dies in a state of sanctifying grace.

    Well, that is like saying anyone that goes to heaven is saved. It says  nothing. Yet he thinks he's "cracked the code".

    He says he is being submissive to the teachings of the Church, that the Church has not definitively decided on the issue of the damnation of those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, on the other hand, he rejects the teachings of the Church that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved. That is a teaching of the Church too, and yet he vehemently rejects it and hates the teaching with a passion. Interesting.

    No theologian in at least the first 1500 years of the Church ever taught that Pagans, Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus etc... can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, and after that time period it was not till the late 1800 that some obscure theologians started pushing the speculation to the point where it was the majority opinion of the theologians at Vatican II.

    We reject that teaching which was enshrined at Vatican II (indeed, the document constantly brought forward by the poster, the 1949 letter, is referenced in Vatican II). We know that it is a teaching of the Church but it is speculative teaching, strictly tolerated at this point in time. We have the right to reject it. 

    On the other side, the poster rejects the constant teaching of the Church that to be saved one must be a sacramentally baptized member of the Catholic Church in a state of grace at death. We have for years been bringing forward all the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, theologians, that is teach the same as us. It is also Church teaching, and has a longer tradition than the recent streak of salvation by belief in a rewarder God. Not one such "strict interpreter" of EENS has ever been declared a heretic, indeed, they are all Saints. Yet the poster hates the teaching so much that he dedicates all his time to counter it.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 10:04:29 AM »
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  • It must be reiterated by further explication more than by redundancy that a non-member can be saved within the Church by being effectively joined to her in a proper theological sense

    You reiterate this opinion ad nauseam.  As I've pointed out, a lot of BoDers don't even buy Fenton's "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Root of Lover of Truth's Illness
    « Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 10:05:09 AM »
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  • In short, the poster does not truly believe that God can provide for the conversion and baptism of a non-Catholic, and so from there he goes into theological speculation to get around every single word in the dogmatic declarations on EENS, the sacraments, and justification. The mental gymnastics is so overwhelming that at the end he does not know what he believes and ends up with the idea that; Any non-Catholic can be saved if he dies in a state of sanctifying grace.

    Spot on.

     

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