Author Topic: The Roman Catechism (Read 20863 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #30 on:** June 07, 2010, 10:54:25 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Someone was kind enough to send me the original Latin, and this passage in Trent represents yet another butchered translation (probably to further an agenda).

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...qui rationis usu praediti sint, Baptismi suscipiendi propositum, atque consilium, & male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam, & iustitiam, si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quominus salutari aqua ablui possint

There's nothing here whatsoever about "impossibility", as the Latin impediat means to hindred or obstruct. It's actually rather bad Latin, but the sense is clear. It should be translated as follows:

"[these proper dispositions] would suffice to see them through any sudden event/mishap that might get in the way of their being able to be cleansed/washed with the saving water", see them through "to grace and justice" -- I just put that last part last not to interrupt the flow.

In other words, it's saying basically that God would not let anything get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament of Baptism if they have the proper dispositions.

Ah yes! The meaning is precisely the opposite of what the words say! I'm beginning to see a pattern here. The irony seems rather that you are not lacking in issuing your own meaningless tautologies in order to save your opinions.

Caminus · « **Reply #31 on:** June 07, 2010, 10:56:14 PM »

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In other words, it's saying basically that God would not let anything get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament of Baptism if they have the proper dispositions.

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should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness

Caminus · « **Reply #32 on:** June 07, 2010, 10:57:27 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Caminus
Oh yeah, go ahead and cite those alleged "errors and contradictions," after you address my post directly.

Sure, the Catechism states that there can be no grace outside the Church (a condemned error). I'm sure it MEANT "sanctifying grace", but that's a pretty serious misstatement there.

That's your evidence of "errors and contradictions"?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #33 on:** June 07, 2010, 11:04:57 PM »

Yes, "impossible" is completely wrong. impediat means, like the English, to impede, get in the way, hinder. At the Latin root you'll find the word "foot", implying being tripped or tangled up.

And "accident" also in English implies death, when the Latin casus just means some happening (with usually negative connotation. Comes from the word to "fall". So it's more like the English "befall" (which also has the same negative connotation).

And the phrase "satis sit ad" does not mean will "avail to" but just literally means "will be enough to (with an implied sense of motion) grace and justice", meaning it will be enough to get you through/past the obstacle to the other side (grace and justice).

Interesting that the Catechism does not list the usual three amigos of Baptisms--which, again, one would expect if that's what it ACTUALLY meant as opposed to what people would like for it to mean.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #34 on:** June 07, 2010, 11:08:06 PM »

So, Caminus, you never answered my question.

Do you know Latin? After all, you promoted Daly's denunciation of the Dimonds on the grounds that the Dimonds do not know Latin and were therefore not competent to theologize publicly.

So do you either reject Daly's opinion or will you admit that you are not competent to debate these matters?