I just came across these quotes and thought they would be applicable to post in this discussion.


From the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Heresy:

"Towards material heretics her (the Church's) conduct is ruled by the saying of St. Augustine: "Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected" (P. L., XXXIII, ep. xliii, 160). Pius IX, in a letter to the bishops of Italy (10 Aug., 1863), restates this Catholic doctrine (on invincible ignorance)...."

This is a perfect example that would exonerate the nine-year-old boy we were speaking about.


And from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Orthodoxy:

"The Church, likewise, in its zeal for purity of faith and teaching, has rigorously adhered to the example set by the Apostles and Early Fathers. This is manifest in its whole history, but especially in such champions of the faith as Athansius, in councils, condemnations of heresy, and its definitions of revealed truth. That orthodox faith is requisite for salvation is a defined doctrine of the Church. "Whosoever wishes to be saved", declares the Athanasian Creed, "must first of all hold integral and inviolate the Catholic faith, without which he shall surely be eternally lost". Numerous councils and papal decisions have reiterated this dogma (cf. Council of Florence, Denz., 714; Prof. of Faith of Pius IV, Denz., 1000; condemnation of Indifferentism and Latitudinarianism in the Syll. of Pius IX, Denz., 1715, 1718; Council of the Vatican, "De Fide". can. vi, Denz., 1815, condemnation of the Modernistic position regarding the nature and origin of dogma, Encyc. "Pascendi Dominici Gregis", 1907, Denz., 2079). While truth must be intolerant of error (II Cor., vi, 14, 15), the Church does not deny the possibility of salvation of those earnest and sincere persons outside her fold who live and die in invincible ignorance of the true faith (cf. Council of the Vatican, Sess. III, cp. iii, Denz.,1794; S Aug., Ep.xliii ad Galerium). (See CHURCH; FAITH; PROTESTANT CONFESSIONS OF FAITH; HERESY; INDIFFERENTISM.) "

This confirms the same interpretation that I've been saying for the Pope Pius IX quote.

Quote from: saintbosco13

they are all unanimous in stating that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church EXEMPTING those in invincible ignorance

Shut up at once, you depraved ignorant baboon.  There is no salvation outside the Church PERIOD.  That is CATHOLIC DOGMA.  At least have the respect to claim that certain people who are materially ignorant of the Catholic Church are still SOMEHOW or IN SOME WAY inside the Church.  Only the most perverted heretics directly contradict this dogma.  At least have the decency to state that some people can formally possess the Catholic faith and receive Baptism in voto despite being materially outside the the Church. i.e. that they're formally inside while being materially outside.

But you have the temerity to declare that there can be salvation outside the Church.

You are an abominable heretic of the first order.

Why is it that I, who do not believe in BoD, can come up with a Catholic formulation of BoD while the BoDers cannot, or, rather, refuse to?  I repeatedly told LoT how he could formulate a belief in BoD that was non-heretical, but in his arrogance he refused to assent to it.  I was trying to help him out.  Hey, LoT, if you want to believe in BoD, that's fine (St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did), but you need to say it like this to avoid heresy.  They would in fact make their case more compelling.  But heavens no, perish the thought.  They persisted in their heretical formulae which are Pelagian and rejected Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.

Why is it that I, who do not believe in BoD, can come up with a Catholic formulation of BoD while the BoDers cannot, or, rather, refuse to?  I repeatedly told LoT how he could formulate a belief in BoD that was non-heretical, but in his arrogance he refused to assent to it.  I was trying to help him out.  Hey, LoT, if you want to believe in BoD, that's fine (St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did), but you need to say it like this to avoid heresy.  They would in fact make their case more compelling.  But heavens no, perish the thought.  They persisted in their heretical formulae which are Pelagian and rejected Trent's dogmatic teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.

Quote from: saintbosco13

they are all unanimous in stating that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church EXEMPTING those in invincible ignorance

This is probably the most heretical statement I ever read on any Traditional Catholic forum. Even LoT agreed that there are no exceptions to EENS dogma (although he redefined who can be in the Church). There are absolutely no exceptions to EENS, as infallible Church pronouncements declare:

"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

Which part of "none of those existing outside the Church can ever be partakers of the eternal life" do you not understand?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." (Athanasian Creed)

Which part of "whosoever" and "without doubt he shall perish everlastingly" do you not understand?

It is also impossible for anyone outside the Church to be saved because outside the Catholic Church there is no remission of sins, as Pope Boniface VIII infallibly declared:

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam)

Invincibly ignorant person cannot have his sins remitted because he is outside the Church.

Despite numerous opportunities you could not utter a single word so far about these dogmatic pronouncements, because you can't. All you can do is to ignore them and hold on to your twisted interpretation of Pius IX.

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: saintbosco13

they are all unanimous in stating that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church EXEMPTING those in invincible ignorance

This is probably the most heretical statement I ever read on any Traditional Catholic forum. Even LoT agreed that there are no exceptions to EENS dogma (although he redefined who can be in the Church). There are absolutely no exceptions to EENS, as infallible Church pronouncements declare:

"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

Which part of "none of those existing outside the Church can ever be partakers of the eternal life" do you not understand?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." (Athanasian Creed)

Which part of "whosoever" and "without doubt he shall perish everlastingly" do you not understand?

It is also impossible for anyone outside the Church to be saved because outside the Catholic Church there is no remission of sins, as Pope Boniface VIII infallibly declared:

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam)

Invincibly ignorant person cannot have his sins remitted because he is outside the Church.

Despite numerous opportunities you could not utter a single word so far about these dogmatic pronouncements, because you can't. All you can do is to ignore them and hold on to your twisted interpretation of Pius IX.

Being exempt is ONLY from visible membership, and through no fault of their own. Nobody can enter heaven without sanctifying grace, and all who have sanctifying grace are AT LEAST a member of the Soul of the Church. St. Robert Bellarmine, declared a Doctor of the Church around 1930, clearly taught it, and it was never condemned since it taught it, nor when his works were scrutinized at his canonization, nor when his works were scrutinized for being declared a Doctor of the Church.

Bosco said that they are exempt from EENS alltogether, which is what I responded to.

Invincibly ignorant cannot belong to the Soul of the Church as long as they remain in invincible ignorance. To be in the Church one needs to have explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity, as the Athanasian Creed infallibly teaches. Nobody can be saved without Supernatural Faith. Show me where St. Robert Bellarmine taught that people can be saved in false religions being invincibly ignorant and joined to the Soul of the Church.

All who die as pagans go to hell, as Cantate Domino infallibly teaches, no exception was made for "invincibly ignorant being joined to the Soul of the Church".

What you guys propose is evolution of dogma which was condemned by Pope St. Pius X  - you insist of different meaning of EENS than the one Church had defined. The Church has defined that faith in Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation - you claim people can be saved without it (evolution). The Church has defined that all who die as pagans go to hell - you claim some pagans who are invincibly ignorant can be saved (evolution). As a result, you end up rejecting EENS as the Church has defined it.

Quote from: saintbosco13

they are all unanimous in stating that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church EXEMPTING those in invincible ignorance

This is probably the most heretical statement I ever read on any Traditional Catholic forum. Even LoT agreed that there are no exceptions to EENS dogma (although he redefined who can be in the Church). There are absolutely no exceptions to EENS, as infallible Church pronouncements declare:

"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

Which part of "none of those existing outside the Church can ever be partakers of the eternal life" do you not understand?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." (Athanasian Creed)

Which part of "whosoever" and "without doubt he shall perish everlastingly" do you not understand?

It is also impossible for anyone outside the Church to be saved because outside the Catholic Church there is no remission of sins, as Pope Boniface VIII infallibly declared:

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam)

Invincibly ignorant person cannot have his sins remitted because he is outside the Church.

Despite numerous opportunities you could not utter a single word so far about these dogmatic pronouncements, because you can't. All you can do is to ignore them and hold on to your twisted interpretation of Pius IX.