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Offline tdrev123

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The Real Problem...
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2017, 07:16:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: tdrev123

    Oh WOW! Now I get it, I finally believe in salvation outside the church.  Starting tonight I am going to not say my family rosary, skip mass on sunday, I think I'll start committing adultery with this cute girl at work, buy some marijuana, and get drunk tonight.  Now that I know that little 9 year old asian boys can be saved without knowing the Faith, surely I'll be saved because I am a good person.  


    WOW, is right. You are only mocking yourself. You already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, so it is impossible for you to be invincibly ignorant of that truth. As well, charity is also required to be saved, so how can you possibly commit all those deeds you know are sins, and expect to have any love of God?


    But how could it be the true church?  God just wants us to be happy in whatever religion we are in.  You don't need to be Catholic to be saved, you guys told me so!
    But everybody in the entire world in all its existence have committed sins, and you told me that non-catholics, ergo people in mortal sin, can be saved!

    God just wants us to be happy and enjoy pleasures of life.  

    I am on my 9th beer, and texting that girl from work.  Thanks Bosco!


    This satirical piece is the logical consequence of BoD and Invincible Ignorance.  

    Why do you think 98% of the catholic population essentially left the faith (accepting sin (Birth control, etc) from 1950 to 1970?
    Do you think they left for religious liberty error?  Some maybe..(5-10%~)
    For ecuмenism? .. a decent amount (10%~), but that didn't even ramp up until JP2.
    For collegiality error?  I doubt one left for that.

    For the denial of No salvation outside the church?  Bingo was his name-o.  


    For any of you nimrods worried about that satire...no I am not drunk (I don't even drink), no I am not texting a girl (I don't even work with any women, or know any besides my wife).  


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    « Reply #31 on: March 02, 2017, 07:22:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: tdrev123

    Oh WOW! Now I get it, I finally believe in salvation outside the church.  Starting tonight I am going to not say my family rosary, skip mass on sunday, I think I'll start committing adultery with this cute girl at work, buy some marijuana, and get drunk tonight.  Now that I know that little 9 year old asian boys can be saved without knowing the Faith, surely I'll be saved because I am a good person.  


    WOW, is right. You are only mocking yourself. You already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, so it is impossible for you to be invincibly ignorant of that truth. As well, charity is also required to be saved, so how can you possibly commit all those deeds you know are sins, and expect to have any love of God?


    But how could it be the true church?  God just wants us to be happy in whatever religion we are in.  You don't need to be Catholic to be saved, you guys told me so!
    But everybody in the entire world in all its existence have committed sins, and you told me that non-catholics, ergo people in mortal sin, can be saved!

    God just wants us to be happy and enjoy pleasures of life.  

    I am on my 9th beer, and texting that girl from work.  Thanks Bosco!


    God wants the whole world to be Catholic, but we have a free-will that is not forced. Invincible ignorance of the true Church doesn't automatically give grace. It's merely a prerequisite for baptism of desire to occur (which is rather rare). The desire for baptism is NOT baptism of desire.

    No, tdrev, you cannot CHOOSE to be invincibly ignorant. That is a patent contradiction.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline tdrev123

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    The Real Problem...
    « Reply #32 on: March 02, 2017, 07:37:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: tdrev123

    Oh WOW! Now I get it, I finally believe in salvation outside the church.  Starting tonight I am going to not say my family rosary, skip mass on sunday, I think I'll start committing adultery with this cute girl at work, buy some marijuana, and get drunk tonight.  Now that I know that little 9 year old asian boys can be saved without knowing the Faith, surely I'll be saved because I am a good person.  


    WOW, is right. You are only mocking yourself. You already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, so it is impossible for you to be invincibly ignorant of that truth. As well, charity is also required to be saved, so how can you possibly commit all those deeds you know are sins, and expect to have any love of God?


    But how could it be the true church?  God just wants us to be happy in whatever religion we are in.  You don't need to be Catholic to be saved, you guys told me so!
    But everybody in the entire world in all its existence have committed sins, and you told me that non-catholics, ergo people in mortal sin, can be saved!

    God just wants us to be happy and enjoy pleasures of life.  

    I am on my 9th beer, and texting that girl from work.  Thanks Bosco!


    God wants the whole world to be Catholic, but we have a free-will that is not forced. Invincible ignorance of the true Church doesn't automatically give grace. It's merely a prerequisite for baptism of desire to occur (which is rather rare). The desire for baptism is NOT baptism of desire.

    No, tdrev, you cannot CHOOSE to be invincibly ignorant. That is a patent contradiction.


    So once somebody tells me about catholicism I can't go to heaven?  

    Offline happenby

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    The Real Problem...
    « Reply #33 on: March 02, 2017, 07:42:10 PM »
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  • God wants the whole world to be Catholic, but we have a free-will that is not forced. Invincible ignorance of the true Church doesn't automatically give grace. It's merely a prerequisite for baptism of desire to occur (which is rather rare). The desire for baptism is NOT baptism of desire.

    No, tdrev, you cannot CHOOSE to be invincibly ignorant. That is a patent contradiction.
    [/quote]


    Invincible ignorance is a prerequisite for baptism of desire to occur (which is rather rare)
    Desire for baptism is not baptism of desire.
    You cannot choose to be invincibly ignorant.

    Please show proof of these claims.

    Starting with the last one. So, invincibly ignorant persons do not have free will?
     

     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #34 on: March 02, 2017, 09:21:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: tdrev123

    Oh WOW! Now I get it, I finally believe in salvation outside the church.  Starting tonight I am going to not say my family rosary, skip mass on sunday, I think I'll start committing adultery with this cute girl at work, buy some marijuana, and get drunk tonight.  Now that I know that little 9 year old asian boys can be saved without knowing the Faith, surely I'll be saved because I am a good person.  


    WOW, is right. You are only mocking yourself. You already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, so it is impossible for you to be invincibly ignorant of that truth. As well, charity is also required to be saved, so how can you possibly commit all those deeds you know are sins, and expect to have any love of God?


    But how could it be the true church?  God just wants us to be happy in whatever religion we are in.  You don't need to be Catholic to be saved, you guys told me so!
    But everybody in the entire world in all its existence have committed sins, and you told me that non-catholics, ergo people in mortal sin, can be saved!

    God just wants us to be happy and enjoy pleasures of life.  

    I am on my 9th beer, and texting that girl from work.  Thanks Bosco!


    You've got serious issues brother. The lights are on but no one's home. Wow.



    Offline saintbosco13

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    The Real Problem...
    « Reply #35 on: March 02, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Imagine for a moment that we could be present at the judgment of the nine-year-old boy I spoke of. If the Feeneyites are correct, here is how the conversation would go between God and the boy:

    "Dear young boy, I created your soul to my image and likeness, to be with me in heaven forever after your life on earth. In your short 9 year life on earth you believed in Me, followed the Natural Law, and had perfect contrition for your sins. Had you known about the Catholic Church, you would have certainly been baptized immediately. Unfortunately I placed you in the home of non-Catholic parents, and though it was not your fault in the least that you didn't have a chance to find out about the Catholic Church during your short life, I must follow the letter of the law and damn you to hell for all eternity because you didn't get baptized with water. I know you were invincibly ignorant and did all you possibly could to please Me with the knowledge you had, but you are just one of the unlucky ones and must be punished for all eternity."


    Now since the boy is invincibly ignorant

    He responds to Jesus: Who are you? You're not Allah, that's who I follow.

    Do seriously believe that Jesus will answer: Don't worry about it, you followed the natural law... and even though you don't know Me or I don't know you... You're one of the lucky ones, enter into the Kingdom of Heaven anyway...

    Pelagius wasn't even this wicked.


    The answer to your question has been posted several times. Pope Pius IX stated,

    "Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments"

    If God determines the boy's ignorance is truly INVINCIBLE, then the boy is not guilty of deliberate sin.





    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #36 on: March 02, 2017, 11:00:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    I have been casually watching various exchanges here before signing up, and I have to say, that "Bosco" is doing a great job. I decided to post a new thread here rather than have my responses be buried in other threads.

    The real problem with Feeneyites is that they seem to not be able to (or refuse to) make a clear distinction between a fact that is spiritual despite a fact that seems to be opposed to that spiritual fact. In other words, they very much try to trump the spiritual with the material. It is very materialistic on their part.

    Let me give prime examples from Holy Scripture. Everyone knows that Our Lord Jesus Christ (God) showed us that even if a person doesn't actually physically kill another person, his hatred alone is considered "murder". As well, Our Lord said that even if a person hasn't physically done anythinbg, his lust is considered "adultery".

    In both cases, an unseen, willful mental act sufficed to ESSENTIALLY signify that a person is a murderer or adulterer, even though there was no dead body, nor woman who was touched.

    Can you Feeneyites understand this distinction, or not??

    The Church has made it ABUNDANTLY clear that a person who is UNSEEN to be physically a member of the Catholic Church, can be ESSENTIALLY a "Catholic" nevertheless through an act of his will. Even though he is visibly a member of a non-Catholic sect.

    What is so hard about understanding this? The quote by the catechism of St. Pius X clearly shows this.


    There is No Such Thing as a 'Feeneyite'....  :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Arvinger

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    « Reply #37 on: March 03, 2017, 01:49:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13

    Again, you are having serious troubles with the English language. The quote from Pope Pius IX speaks of somebody attaining everlasting life and not suffering eternal punishments because he is invincibly ignorant.The person has both DIED and NOT been damned. Wake up brother!

    No, it is you who have serious trouble in reading Cattate Domino and the Athanasian Creed, where no exception is made for invinciblr ignorance. All who die as pagans go to hell (Cantate Domino) and explicit fairth in Jesus Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation (Athanasian Creed). You refuse to address botjh of these infallible statements because they totally refute your heretical Anonymous Christian idea.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Imagine for a moment that we could be present at the judgment of the nine-year-old boy I spoke of. If the Feeneyites are correct, here is how the conversation would go between God and the boy:

    "Dear young boy, I created your soul to my image and likeness, to be with me in heaven forever after your life on earth. In your short 9 year life on earth you believed in Me, followed the Natural Law, and had perfect contrition for your sins. Had you known about the Catholic Church, you would have certainly been baptized immediately. Unfortunately I placed you in the home of non-Catholic parents, and though it was not your fault in the least that you didn't have a chance to find out about the Catholic Church during your short life, I must follow the letter of the law and damn you to hell for all eternity because you didn't get baptized with water. I know you were invincibly ignorant and did all you possibly could to please Me with the knowledge you had, but you are just one of the unlucky ones and must be punished for all eternity."

    So now you go to emotionalism, like all Cushingites. Underlying the above monologue is the assumption that it was impossible for God to provide faith and baptism to this boy, which is of course rejection of divine providence. If he was of good will, seeked truth about God and followed the natural law God would have granted him means to learn the faith and receive baptism as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches. Divine providence never fails.

    Cushingites don't like this since it does not give them opportunity to excuse millions of non-Catholics to open them way to salvation without faith in Christ and without baptism.

    Plus, as St. Augustine says, it is possible that God placed in pagan nations those about whom he knew they would reject the Gospel had they heard it. This would be God's mercy, because by explicitly rejecting the Gospel they would be much more culpable and suffer greater pains in hell.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    You are creating your own Catholicism on the fly here. Below is the quote from Pope Pius IX, and I'm adding what you are claiming in red, in the appropriate location. Now read through the quote with your claim added and look at what insane gibberish the paragraph becomes. The paragraph then states the invincibly ignorant are able to obtain eternal life through conversion to Catholicism (as if a Pope would need to mention such a thing), then the Pope adds no one guilty of deliberate sin suffers eternal punishment... WHY would he make this final statement if the person has already converted to Catholicism? You illegally add your own words to the quote from Pope Pius IX, and it absolutely destroys its meaning. Your argument is over. I recommend you hire an English tutor.

    Not at all, I just read text in context. Pope Pius IX emphasizes God's providence and his care for people by saying that even those who are invincibly ignorant (i.e. could not learn the faith under normal circuмstances) can be led to Catholicism "through divine light and grace" (which of course includes conversion), because, as he says in the next paragraph, there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church and they need to enter the Church to be saved. The point is that God is capable to grant conversion and faith even to invincibly ignorant if they are of good will, so they do not suffer eternal punishment.

    Again, here is Catholic dogma which you reject:
    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41)" (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

    It is impossible for thos who die as pagans to be saved, period (no exception is made for pagans in invincible ignorance).

    "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. (...) He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man." (Athanasian Creed)

    Whosoever will be saved must hold the Catholic faith, without it he will perish eternally without any doubt (no exception is made for invincible ignorance).

    But of course you don't believe this. I will stay with the Catholic dogma.


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #38 on: March 03, 2017, 06:06:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: saintbosco13

     “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace (Aringer: by conversion to the Catholic faith). Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”


    To think that Pius IX was speaking of "conversion"! That simply and clearly mutilates the whole context and makes Pius IX look like he had a mental problem. I see the same is done with the quote from the St. Pius X catechism.


    When you read Pius IX's teaching, you must place the emphasis where it belongs. If you can get yourself to accomplish this and if you can strive to put away your bias, you cannot help but see that Pius IX decrees *the first* criteria is a necessity - that is, that those who are invincibly ignorant about our most holy religion are struggling to understand it! This means they are putting forth an honest effort to find out about it, to seek the truth. Do not ignore this first and most necessary criteria.

    As long as those who are invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion are honestly struggling to find out about it, we have God's promise that they *will* find out about it - "Seek and ye shall find...."

    Next, we see those struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion will *also* be "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".
     
    By ignoring the first criteria, the dogma diluters propose either one of two errors as being Church teachings......

    1) Those invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion who honestly struggle to find out about it, would at the same time attain salvation even when they reject the natural laws, disobey God and live their whole life as that of a pagan infidel.

    2) Or, that the invincibly ignorant who know nothing of our most holy religion, yet at the same time are able to sincerely observe the natural law, are ready to obey God, and live honest lives and attain salvation - all by virtue of their ignorance, and all without the help of God at all. Effectively negating any need whatsoever for God and our most holy religion.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    « Reply #39 on: March 03, 2017, 07:04:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: saintbosco13

     “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace (Aringer: by conversion to the Catholic faith). Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”


    To think that Pius IX was speaking of "conversion"! That simply and clearly mutilates the whole context and makes Pius IX look like he had a mental problem. I see the same is done with the quote from the St. Pius X catechism.


    When you read Pius IX's teaching, you must place the emphasis where it belongs. If you can get yourself to accomplish this and if you can strive to put away your bias, you cannot help but see that Pius IX decrees *the first* criteria is a necessity - that is, that those who are invincibly ignorant about our most holy religion are struggling to understand it! This means they are putting forth an honest effort to find out about it, to seek the truth. Do not ignore this first and most necessary criteria.

    As long as those who are invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion are honestly struggling to find out about it, we have God's promise that they *will* find out about it - "Seek and ye shall find...."

    Next, we see those struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion will *also* be "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".
     
    By ignoring the first criteria, the dogma diluters propose either one of two errors as being Church teachings......

    1) Those invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion who honestly struggle to find out about it, would at the same time attain salvation even when they reject the natural laws, disobey God and live their whole life as that of a pagan infidel.

    2) Or, that the invincibly ignorant who know nothing of our most holy religion, yet at the same time are able to sincerely observe the natural law, are ready to obey God, and live honest lives and attain salvation - all by virtue of their ignorance, and all without the help of God at all. Effectively negating any need whatsoever for God and our most holy religion.



    Now, tell us whether you believe the docuмent, and whether you believe he is talking about visible conversion of non-Catholics to the true Faith.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #40 on: March 03, 2017, 09:13:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: saintbosco13

    Again, you are having serious troubles with the English language. The quote from Pope Pius IX speaks of somebody attaining everlasting life and not suffering eternal punishments because he is invincibly ignorant.The person has both DIED and NOT been damned. Wake up brother!

    No, it is you who have serious trouble in reading Cattate Domino and the Athanasian Creed, where no exception is made for invinciblr ignorance. All who die as pagans go to hell (Cantate Domino) and explicit fairth in Jesus Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation (Athanasian Creed). You refuse to address botjh of these infallible statements because they totally refute your heretical Anonymous Christian idea.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Imagine for a moment that we could be present at the judgment of the nine-year-old boy I spoke of. If the Feeneyites are correct, here is how the conversation would go between God and the boy:

    "Dear young boy, I created your soul to my image and likeness, to be with me in heaven forever after your life on earth. In your short 9 year life on earth you believed in Me, followed the Natural Law, and had perfect contrition for your sins. Had you known about the Catholic Church, you would have certainly been baptized immediately. Unfortunately I placed you in the home of non-Catholic parents, and though it was not your fault in the least that you didn't have a chance to find out about the Catholic Church during your short life, I must follow the letter of the law and damn you to hell for all eternity because you didn't get baptized with water. I know you were invincibly ignorant and did all you possibly could to please Me with the knowledge you had, but you are just one of the unlucky ones and must be punished for all eternity."

    So now you go to emotionalism, like all Cushingites. Underlying the above monologue is the assumption that it was impossible for God to provide faith and baptism to this boy, which is of course rejection of divine providence. If he was of good will, seeked truth about God and followed the natural law God would have granted him means to learn the faith and receive baptism as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches. Divine providence never fails.

    Cushingites don't like this since it does not give them opportunity to excuse millions of non-Catholics to open them way to salvation without faith in Christ and without baptism.

    Plus, as St. Augustine says, it is possible that God placed in pagan nations those about whom he knew they would reject the Gospel had they heard it. This would be God's mercy, because by explicitly rejecting the Gospel they would be much more culpable and suffer greater pains in hell.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    You are creating your own Catholicism on the fly here. Below is the quote from Pope Pius IX, and I'm adding what you are claiming in red, in the appropriate location. Now read through the quote with your claim added and look at what insane gibberish the paragraph becomes. The paragraph then states the invincibly ignorant are able to obtain eternal life through conversion to Catholicism (as if a Pope would need to mention such a thing), then the Pope adds no one guilty of deliberate sin suffers eternal punishment... WHY would he make this final statement if the person has already converted to Catholicism? You illegally add your own words to the quote from Pope Pius IX, and it absolutely destroys its meaning. Your argument is over. I recommend you hire an English tutor.

    Not at all, I just read text in context. Pope Pius IX emphasizes God's providence and his care for people by saying that even those who are invincibly ignorant (i.e. could not learn the faith under normal circuмstances) can be led to Catholicism "through divine light and grace" (which of course includes conversion), because, as he says in the next paragraph, there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church and they need to enter the Church to be saved. The point is that God is capable to grant conversion and faith even to invincibly ignorant if they are of good will, so they do not suffer eternal punishment.

    Again, here is Catholic dogma which you reject:
    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41)" (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

    It is impossible for thos who die as pagans to be saved, period (no exception is made for pagans in invincible ignorance).

    "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. (...) He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man." (Athanasian Creed)

    Whosoever will be saved must hold the Catholic faith, without it he will perish eternally without any doubt (no exception is made for invincible ignorance).

    But of course you don't believe this. I will stay with the Catholic dogma.


    Arvi,

    Invincible ignorance is a teaching of the Church and you ignore it, which amounts to a condemnation of Pope Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X who taught it very clearly. Not surprised since you Feeneyites condemn one Pope after the other anyway.

    Everyone reading this KNOWS that it would be GROSSLY UNJUST for God to condemn the nine-year-old boy to eternal fire in the example given. You seem to think it's fine, which is really disturbing. You are fabricating your own teaching that every person will get a messenger or angel. Complete fabrication. The quotes on invincible ignorance show that people can die without such a messenger. They also say those in invincible ignorance are not guilty of sin.

    The fact that you add your own words to existing quotes from Popes is bad enough, but when you ACTUALLY try to convince us that the quotes make sense afterward when everyone sees they don't - what more needs to be said? Like anyone is going to take your word over these popes. I think it's time to add you to the ignore list along with Stubborn - you are not capable of a rational discussion.




    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Real Problem...
    « Reply #41 on: March 03, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Invincible ignorance is a teaching of the Church and you ignore it, which amounts to a condemnation of Pope Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X who taught it very clearly. Not surprised since you Feeneyites condemn one Pope after the other anyway.


     :facepalm: idiot

    Invincible ignorance is not salvific, merely exculpatory ... unless you're a Pelagian like yourself.  What's at issue is what are the POSITIVE requirements for salvation.

    You're such an idiot that it's impossible to have a rational conversation with you.

    Man I miss LoT -- at least he understood basic concepts like this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #42 on: March 03, 2017, 09:47:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Everyone reading this KNOWS that it would be GROSSLY UNJUST for God to condemn the nine-year-old boy to eternal fire in the example given.


    Again, the core principles of bosco's theological "reasoning" ... the hubris to sit in judgment of God.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #43 on: March 03, 2017, 09:53:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    "Dear young boy, I created your soul to my image and likeness, to be with me in heaven forever after your life on earth. In your short 9 year life on earth you believed in Me, followed the Natural Law, and had perfect contrition for your sins. Had you known about the Catholic Church, you would have certainly been baptized immediately. Unfortunately I placed you in the home of non-Catholic parents, and though it was not your fault in the least that you didn't have a chance to find out about the Catholic Church during your short life, I must follow the letter of the law and damn you to hell for all eternity because you didn't get baptized with water. I know you were invincibly ignorant and did all you possibly could to please Me with the knowledge you had, but you are just one of the unlucky ones and must be punished for all eternity."[/i]


    You are an absolute Pelagian heretic.

    NO HUMAN BEGIN has a RIGHT to supernatural life or the beatific vision ... first of all.  In fact, our natures are not even created to support this.  And there would have been nothing "unjust" of God to not grant it at all.  That's the first principle that escapes your heretically depraved mind.

    Secondly, if there is such as one who places no obstacles in the way of God's grace (such as this 9-year-old), God would never treat him in the way you (blasphemously) describe.  God would in fact enlighten him (as Pius IX taught) and lead him to supernatural faith and Baptism.  That is also what St. Pius X's Catechism indicated when saying that these are "on the way" of salvation.

    Offline Arvinger

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    « Reply #44 on: March 03, 2017, 10:19:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13

    Invincible ignorance is a teaching of the Church and you ignore it, which amounts to a condemnation of Pope Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X who taught it very clearly. Not surprised since you Feeneyites condemn one Pope after the other anyway.

    I want to be charitable, but Ladislaus' suspicion that you have problems with understanding of written text seems more and more probable to me. I never denied that there is such thing as invincible ignorance. Yes, there are people who are invincibly ignorant. However, invincible ignorance is never salvific and people who remain it it cannot be saved because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ and the Incarnation and they did not receive the sacrament of baptism - these are requirements for salvation without exception. All who die as pagans go to hell, as Cantate Domino infallibly teaches - no exception was made by the Council of Florence for invincible ignorance.

    Also, I accept Thomistic BoD (for those with faith in Jesus Christ and the Incarnation), yet you call me a Feeneyite. This shows you don't care at all about BoD - rather, you promote possibility of salvation outside the Church and in any religion.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Everyone reading this KNOWS that it would be GROSSLY UNJUST for God to condemn the nine-year-old boy to eternal fire in the example given.

    So now you place yourself in the judgment seat of God to decide what would be just and what would not.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    You seem to think it's fine, which is really disturbing.

    No, I deny that such scenario could occur. If this 9-year-old boy was of good will and was seeking truth however he could God would grant him means to learn about the Catholic faith and receive the sacrament of baptism.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    You are fabricating your own teaching that every person will get a messenger or angel. Complete fabrication.

    Again you misrepresent me. Every person of good will shall receive a messenger (or other means to arrive to the Catholic faith), as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches. God will not leave a person who seeks him without faith and Baptism, and he can grant them always through any means.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    The quotes on invincible ignorance show that people can die without such a messenger. They also say those in invincible ignorance are not guilty of sin.

    if they were left without the faith it means they were not of good will and because of that God did not grant them means to learn about it. As St. Augustine said, it is possible that God left them in ignorance because he foreknew they would reject the Gospel if they heard it which would greatly increase their condemnation in hell. In such situation leaving them in ignorance would be God's mercy.

    Quote from: saintbosco13
    The fact that you add your own words to existing quotes from Popes is bad enough, but when you ACTUALLY try to convince us that the quotes make sense afterward when everyone sees they don't - what more needs to be said? Like anyone is going to take your word over these popes. I think it's time to add you to the ignore list along with Stubborn - you are not capable of a rational discussion.

    I interpret the text in context (you still refuse to address the paragraph which comes right after the one you keep quoting, where Pope Pius IX says that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church). In context he speaks that these invincibly ignorant people will be converted (this is why he writes about divine light and grace). You interpret it out of context and in opposition to Catholic dogma.

    On top of that, you still refuse to address Cantate Domino and the Athanasian Creed. It is because you can't, they refute your heretical position.