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Author Topic: The predestined will not end their life without the sacrament of the Mediator  (Read 3124 times)

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Offline trad123

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Saint Augustine Against Julian

https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281

The Fathers of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 35

Introduction, page XI:




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St. Augustine wrote this work in the closing years of a life busied with three great controversies--Manichaeism, Donatism, Pelagianism, the last ending with the Contra Julianum and the Opus imperfectum contra Julianum.




Page 258:




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Chapter 4
 
(. . .)
 
Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, are born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12
 
(. . .)
 
11 John 6.59.
12 John 6.44.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


Offline Lois Einhorn

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Predestination is a protestant heresy. 
LACES OUT !!!


Offline Marcellinus

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Predestination is a protestant heresy.
Predestination is a Catholic dogma that must be believed by all Catholics.  It is also a mystery that is impossible to understand fully.

What you mean to say is the Calvinistic view of predestination is heretical.

Offline Ladislaus

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Predestination is a protestant heresy.

Not exactly.  While there is a heretical Protestant notion of predestination, there's also a Catholic view, and I don't know of any Catholic theologian that does not hold to (some variation of) the Catholic view of predestination.

Offline Lois Einhorn

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Explain the difference. 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Predestination is a protestant heresy.

Hi, Lois. The only thing that stopped me from a down vote was I said today I can't recall giving a down vote. :laugh1:

This is absolute nonsense. Read the authorities in this thread:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg733125/#msg733125
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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  • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8

Offline Lois Einhorn

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Hi, Lois. The only thing that stopped me from a down vote was I said today I can't recall giving a down vote. :laugh1:

This is absolute nonsense. Read the authorities in this thread:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg733125/#msg733125


Heresy.

Nobody is predestined to salvation. Salvation depends on free will to avoid being in mortal sin upon death. A person must freely choose to be in the state of grace upon their death. Christ gives us a choice to choose Him or reject Him, and our eternal reward or punishment depends on this free will. 

Give a synopsis of the difference instead of linking your heretical thread. 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Heresy.

Nobody is predestined to salvation. Salvation depends on free will to avoid being in mortal sin upon death. A person must freely choose to be in the state of grace upon their death. Christ gives us a choice to choose Him or reject Him, and our eternal reward or punishment depends on this free will. 

. . . heretical thread.

If you read the authorities cited in the  thread, and could actually say that, you need to do something other than discuss things outside your ken on forums like this, and so avoid making a fool of yourself. Or worse.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline bodeens

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If you read the authorities cited in the  thread, and could actually say that, you need to do something other than discuss things outside your ken on forums like this, and so avoid making a fool of yourself. Or worse.

Maybe this trad hasn't quite realized that in rejecting predestination entirely the user accepts a Vatican II idea of salvation, since this is uniquely tied to "many" in the True Mass.
Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
Francis is Pope.
NO is a good Mass.
Not an ironic sig.

Offline Lois Einhorn

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If you read the authorities cited in the  thread, and could actually say that, you need to do something other than discuss things outside your ken on forums like this, and so avoid making a fool of yourself. Or worse.

You're subtly attempting to lead people to Calvinist heresy. The Catholic explanation is different from what you have stated in your own words so far. You have yet to give a synopsis of the difference between the Catholic view of being written in the Book of Life and the heresy of predestination.

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Maybe this trad hasn't quite realized that in rejecting predestination entirely the user accepts a Vatican II idea of salvation, since this is uniquely tied to "many" in the True Mass.
Wrong. I reject Vatican II.
LACES OUT !!!


Offline Lois Einhorn

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What merit is there for the predestined when being predestined guarantees a person salvation? That means there can't be any true free will for that person. To say "the predestined have free will" is illogical. Just admit that your belief is a contradiction. Your poor explanation is a contradiction. You're saying that God is the Author of confusion, when in reality, it is Satan who is the author of confusion. The fact is you don't even really know WTH you believe. All you can do is parrot something you read and post links, but you have no real understanding of it. How can you, when what you espouse makes no sense?
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Offline Marcellinus

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What merit is there for the predestined when being predestined guarantees a person salvation? That means there can't be any true free will for that person. To say "the predestined have free will" is illogical. Just admit that your belief is a contradiction. Your poor explanation is a contradiction. You're saying that God is the Author of confusion, when in reality, it is Satan who is the author of confusion. The fact is you don't even really know WTH you believe. All you can do is parrot something you read and post links, but you have no real understanding of it. How can you, when what you espouse makes no sense?
It is a mystery, like the Holy Trinity, that cannot be understood.

You must give assent to the Catholic dogmas of free will and predestination in order to be a Catholic.  You do not have to understand them.

Offline Ladislaus

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Salvation depends on free will to avoid being in mortal sin upon death. A person must freely choose to be in the state of grace upon their death. Christ gives us a choice to choose Him or reject Him, and our eternal reward or punishment depends on this free will. 

... and the Catholic doctrine of predestination affirms what you write above.  Your assertion that it contradicts the above means you failed to understand it.  Granted, it's not easy to understand, and not possible to completely understand, since it's a mystery.  There are two major approaches to predestination held by Catholics, and the Church refused to step in and pick a side ... one of the few times that the Church has failed to do so.  But I think that you should have a bit of humility and just admit you don't understand it rather than chanting "Heresy".

Offline Ladislaus

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https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Alas, this article does in fact contain real heresy, the heresy of modern times, and the root cause of Vatican II:

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From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.

:facepalm: ... it just doesn't end.  So Catholics are just "more signally favoured" that all these others who are predestined, including Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans.  This is basically the teaching of Vatican II decades earlier.